In article <PI2s8.2417$Sv.182491@localhost>, tturner@ecn.ab.ca () 
wrote:

> Jalapeno (jalapeno1@mac.com) wrote:
> : In article <CpPr8.2384$Sv.150131@localhost>, tturner@ecn.ab.ca () 
> : wrote:
> <snip>
> 
> --> Thanks for the info.  It's cleared-up some points, though not all.
>     From what I've read directly by the creator of LANceGS (ie: the web-
>     -site) it's aimed at the IIgs, perhaps because the GS is 16bit and
>     has software for surfing/networking ...

It is a network interface card that works in either a IIgs or an 
enhanced IIe. A network interface card is the lowest level of a layered 
protocol (i.e. the hardware). As with any computing device the hardware 
does absolutely nothing without instructions (i.e. the software).

In order to protect his investment, Mr. Lange has not released the low 
level programming information, but he has offered to write the next up 
layer from the hardware (in the OSI model that would be the link layer), 
but someone must provide him with specifications as to how the hardware 
will interface to the rest of the protocol stack. In other words, he 
will provide a programming interface to the hardware but he isn't going 
to write the network software for us.

There are currently two network protocols available to the IIgs and one 
network protocol available to an enhanced IIe. (Not counting xmodem etc.)

The IIgs has Appletalk/Localtalk networking built in. The Localtalk 
being the hardware portion (i.e. the serial port and a Localtalk dongle 
with either Localtalk cable or phonet cable connected to it) and 
Appletalk being the software, provided by Apple Computer in the serial 
port firmware and as drivers/inits/control panel in the System folder.

Mr. Bennett created a second network protocol (a suite collectively 
known as TCP/IP) that uses the built in serial port for hardware and 
provides software in the form of drivers/inits/control panel in the 
System folder.

A block diagram might help to illustrate at this point in the discussion.

o - + - o    Begin ASCII Art    o - + - o

   +-------------------------------------------+
   |                                           |
   |      Apple IIgs running Sys 6.0.1         |
   |                                           |
   |   +------+   application  +-----+         |
   |   |Finder|     programs   |GWftp|         |
   |   +--o---+                +--o--+         |
   |      |                       |            |
   |      |                       |            |
   |  +---o-----+             +---o----+       |
   |  |Appletalk|   network   |TCP/IP  |       |
   |  | Network |   programs  |Network |       |
   |  | Software|             |Software|       |
   |  +----o----+             +---o----+       |
   |       |                      |            |
   |       |                      |            |
   |    Printer                 Modem          |
   |     Port       network     Port           |
   |     |   |     hardware     |   |          |
   +-----+ O +------------------+ O +----------+
           +                      +
           |                      |
           |                      |
         +---+              +-----------+
         |   |   Localtalk  |           |
         |   |<-<< Dongle   |   Modem   |
         +-O-+              |           |
           Z                +-----O-----+
           Z                      Z
           Z                      Z
           Z                      Z
      Appletalk                 TCP/IP
       Network                 Network

o - + - o    End ASCII Art    o - + - o

What the above diagram illustrates is that in order to say, transfer a 
file to another computer, you need an application program (Finder for 
Appletalk or GWftp for TCP/IP) which sends commands and data to a 
network program which in turn communicates with the hardware (in the 
IIgs the hardware is built-in ports which emulate a card in a slot).

Both Appletalk network software and TCP/IP network software use layered 
protocols. For this discussion they can be simplified and broken down 
like this:

o - + - o    Begin ASCII Art    o - + - o

   +------------------+     +-------------------+
   |                  |     |                   |
   |      Other       |     |      Other        |
   |    Appletalk     |     |      TCPIP        |
   |      Layers      |     |      Layers       |
   |                  |     |                   |
   |                  |     |                   |
   |                  |     |                   |
   +------------------+     +-------------------+     at least 3
   |    Localtalk     |     | Slip or PPP or DC |     are available,
   |   Link  Layer    |     |    Link  Layer    |<-<< which one to
   +------------------+     +-------------------+     use is chosen
                                                      in the Marinetti
                                                      control panel
                                                     
o - + - o    End ASCII Art    o - + - o

The link layer is the software that communicates directly with the 
hardware and passes information between the hardware and the other 
layers.

When you put a LANceGS into the computer, the block diagram changes 
slightly.

o - + - o    Begin ASCII Art    o - + - o

   +-------------------------------------------+
   |                                           |
   |      Apple IIgs running Sys 6.0.1         |
   |                                           |
   |   +------+   application  +-----+         |
   |   |Finder|     programs   |GWftp|         |
   |   +--o---+                +--o--+         |
   |      |                       |            |
   |      |                       |            |
   |  +---o-----+             +---o----+       |
   |  |Appletalk|   network   |TCP/IP  |       |
   |  | Network |   programs  |Network |       |
   |  | Software|             |Software|       |
   |  +----o----+             +---o----+       |
   |       |                      |            |
   |       |                      |            |
   |    Printer      LANceGS    Modem   network|
   |     Port         Card      Port   hardware|
   |     |   |        |   |     |   |          |
   +-----+ O +--------+ O +-----+ O +----------+
           +                      +
           |                      |
           |                      |
         +---+              +-----------+
         |   |   Localtalk  |           |
         |   |<-<< Dongle   |   Modem   |
         +-O-+              |           |
           Z                +-----O-----+
           Z                      Z
           Z                      Z
           Z                      Z
      Appletalk                 TCP/IP
       Network                 Network

o - + - o    End ASCII Art    o - + - o

As you can see, the LANceGS hardware has been added but nothing is 
talking to it. A link layer in the network software needs to be written 
for the LANceGS card to do anything. Mr. Lange and Mr. Bennet added an
additional link layer to the Marinetti TCP/IP stack:

o - + - o    Begin ASCII Art    o - + - o

   +-------------------------------------------+
   |                                           |
   |      Apple IIgs running Sys 6.0.1         |
   |                                           |
   |   +------+   application  +-----+         |
   |   |Finder|     programs   |GWftp|         |
   |   +--o---+                +--o--+         |
   |      |                       |            |
   |      |                       |            |
   |  +---o-----+             +---o----+       |
   |  |Appletalk|   network   |TCP/IP  |       |
   |  | Network |   programs  |Network |       |
   |  | Software|             |Software|       |
   |  +----o----+             +---o----+       |
   |       |                     /             |
   |       |                    /              |
   |       |                   /               |
   |       |                  /                |
   |       |                 /                 |
   |       |                /                  |
   |       |               /                   |
   |    Printer      LANceGS    Modem   network|
   |     Port         Card      Port   hardware|
   |     |   |        |   |     |   |          |
   +-----+ O +--------+ O +-----+ O +----------+
           +            Z         +
           |            Z         |
           |            Z         |
         +---+          Z   +-----------+
         |   |          Z   |           |
         |   |          Z   |   Modem   |
         +-O-+          Z   |           |
           Z            Z   +-----O-----+
           Z            Z         Z
           Z            Z         Z
           Z            Z         Z
      Appletalk     ethernet   TCP/IP
       Network      network    Network

o - + - o    End ASCII Art    o - + - o

So the TCP/IP network software, in simplified form, looks like this:

o - + - o    Begin ASCII Art    o - + - o

   +------------------+     +-------------------+
   |                  |     |                   |
   |      Other       |     |      Other        |
   |    Appletalk     |     |      TCPIP        |
   |      Layers      |     |      Layers       |
   |                  |     |                   |
   |                  |     |                   |
   |                  |     |                   |
   +------------------+     +-------------------+    
   |    Localtalk     |     | Slip or PPP or DC |     at least 4
   |                  |     |    or LANceGS     |     are available,
   |   Link  Layer    |     |    Link  Layer    |<-<< which one to
   +------------------+     +-------------------+     use is chosen
                                                      in the Marinetti
                                                      control panel
                                                     
o - + - o    End ASCII Art    o - + - o

Theoretically, to use the LANceGS for Appletalk networking you could do 
the same thing as was done for Marinetti, create a new link layer 
(ethertalk instead of localtalk). However it isn't that simple because 
the localtalk link layer is built into the firmware. So either some 
fancy patching would need to be done for the other appletalk layers or a 
new appletalk stack will need to be written.

As I wrote above, Mr. Lange would do the new Appletalk link layer that 
would communicate directly with the LANceGS but someone else will 
probably need to do the rest.

The IIe is a different story. It doesn't come with any network hardware. 
To do serial communication a serial card is installed. To do Appletalk 
networking a Localtalk workstation card is installed. The network 
software for Appletalk is in the firmware on the card so to do file 
transfers on a IIe you just need the card and the supplied application 
software from Apple Computer. 

When you install the LANceGS on the IIe there is no network software and 
no application software. Mr. Lange could write a link layer for it but 
what is the point if there is nothing for the link layer to communicate 
with?

o - + - o    Begin ASCII Art    o - + - o

   +-------------------------------------------+
   |                                           |
   |      Apple IIe running ProDOS             |
   |                                           |
   |   +------+   application  +-----+         |
   |   |Apple |     programs   |?????|         |
   |   |program                |     |
   |   +--o---+                +--o--+         |
   |      |                       |            |
   |      |                       |            |
   |  +---o-----+             +---o----+       |
   |  |Appletalk|   network   |??????  |       |
   |  | Network |   programs  |Network |       |
   |  | Software|             |Software|       |
   |  | & Work- |             +---o----+       |
   |  | station |                              |
   |  |  Card   |    LANceGS    Serial  network|
   |  +--+   +--+     Card      Card   hardware|
   |     |   |        |   |     |   |          |
   +-----+ O +--------+ O +-----+ O +----------+
           +                      
           |                      
           |                      
         +---+              
         |   |   Localtalk  
         |   |<-<< Dongle   
         +-O-+              
           Z              
           Z                      
           Z                      
           Z                      
      Appletalk                 
       Network                

o - + - o    End ASCII Art    o - + - o


>     ...                                    (though it's still not clear
>     whether other hardware is required for the networking side: Mac, or
>     GatorBox, etc...); while the IIe (or the IIc/IIc+, for that matter),
>     has no software that can make use of the LANceGS card.
> 

The discussion you see about Gatorboxes are from people who do not have 
LANceGS cards. The Gatorbox is an Appletalk router/gateway that connects 
an ethernet network on one side to a Localtalk network on the other 
side. Apple II's can communicate via their serial ports (or the IIe 
workstation card) to Mac's on an ethernet network this way. However, 
until the MacIP link layer to Marinetti is finished and released there 
is no way to do TCP/IP through a Gatorbox with an Apple II. Macintoshes 
can use the Gatorbox via OpenTransport or MacTCP. IIgs' can't until a 
new link layered is installed.

>     I don't expect to be able to run software on a PC, from my Apples;
>     nor on my Apples, from my PCs.  I'd simply like to be able to copy,
>     delete, open and perhaps save, TXT files - from either side, to
>     either side.  Simply being able to do a directory (CATalog) on one
>     of my Apples (and navigate up/down/through trees/paths/directories)
>     would be a neat thing to be able to do.    ...

The LANceGS card is capable, the application software needs to be 
written (an ftp server that runs on the IIgs would be a good candidate 
for an application. With an ftp server you could connect to your II via 
ftp and do your dirty deeds on your apple II from your PC). Heck, if 
someone would write an Appletalk server for the IIgs you could do it via 
the built in Localtalk. Like I wrote previously, the lack of software is 
the holdup, not the hardware.

>     ...                                     Hell, I'd add my Amiga 500
>     to the network, as well, if I could - getting Apple 2's, PC's & an
>     Amiga 500 even doing a rudimentary `talking' to each other would
>     give me a grin that would hurt my face...  :-> 
> 
>     But the more info I get, the better informed I'll be and even that's
>     a good goal, as well.  Thanks.
> : > 
> : > --> If, by adding a LANceGS card to my IIe, possibly modded - and if,
> : >     by adding some software (installable on my Sider), I could get my
> : >     IIe to be able to share/swap/copy/open files with/between the PC's
> : >     on my P2P network (IOW, add my IIe directly to my network, via/
> : >     through my Linksys Switches); then I would quite likely spring for
> : >     the dollars to obtain such.  Simply because I think t'would be so
> : >     very, very, cool.
> : > 
> 
> : Only the [lack of] software for the iie is holding you back now.
> <snip>
> 
>     Aye, there's the rub.  I don't have the technical skills to know
>     whats' needed, nor the abilities to bring such, to fruition.  All
>     I can do is hope that it may, someday, exist.  At that point; I
>     buy 2 LANceGS cards (or whatever equivalent makes it happen) and
>     hope the software is well under a hundred bucks - so I can buy
>     one for the IIe and one for the IIgs (and if a couple or three
>     different programs are needed - buy them one-at-a-time, so the
>     Wife doesn't blow-up:  "You're spending HOW MUCH on those old
>     computers!?!?")  ;-/ 
> 

Just deliver newspapers for the next 75 weeks and with tips alone you 
should be able to buy two or three of them ;)