> "Rubywand" wrote > Neat! Never heard of a "Golden II" before. Maybe you could > show a pic or two. "Bill Garber" wrote > I've seen Golden IIs on eBay at least twice. Yeah, I've only seen a two or three in all the years that I've been looking, so I was pleased to finally get one. It was one of the clones that I felt that no "serious" clone collection should be without. It's kind of funny, now that I think about it, because Apple II clones are not hard to find UNLESS you are looking for a specific clone -then you suddenly realize that particular clones are hard to find. If I just hunt for Apple II clones on ebay, I can find at least one at any given time but if I hunt for say, a Golden II or a Pineapple, I practically never see them. So, getting back to my point, the Golden II is no more or less rare than an APCO or an Arrow 1000, but since more people know about the Golden II, it has more value. The Franklin Ace 1000 is one of the most common clones but often, it sells for more than the rarest clones. Here is a list of what I think the most valuable clones should be: 1. Pineapple 2. Mimic Spartan 3. Agat-9 4. Micro SCI Havoc 5. ITT 2020 6. Golden II 7. Basis 108 8. Polymax Maxxi 9. Multitech MPF II or III 10. Franklin Ace 100 The top seven on the list are firm, based on a combination of scarcity and name mystique. Everything below those are a little more debatable. The top six on the list are damned near impossible to find but that isn't saying much because almost all clones are hard to find -the Franklin Ace 1000 and Laser 128 are the exceptions. There are many clones that I've only ever seen one of but they are less valuable (at this time) because no one has ever heard of them. I sometimes wonder how many of any particular clone are left? I know that there were only about 200 Mimic Spartans sold -and I know where four are. I only know of one or two SCI Havocs, and certainly only one Agat 9. I plan to add a list area to my web site that will allow visitors to indicate if they have a particular clone, and with that list, I hope to be able to show how rare most clones really are. It might take years to build a good list but it will be interesting to see the results. I'll include a column for serial numbers, so that they can be tracked if they are sold on ebay, etc.. Ernest schrieb: > I was guessing that the number would have been closer to 200+, but now > it's looking like my guess was high. It depends on how to distinguish between the different clone types. E.g. 99,9% of the Apple II clones sold in Germany were based on two GTAC ("Generic Taiwanese Apple II Clone" types: GTAC-1 is similar to the Apple II Rev 7 board with a 6502 cpu, 48k RAM, eight slots and six 2716 or three 2732 EPROMs. GTAC-2 has 6502 cpu, a built-in Z80 card, 64k RAM and seven slots. Slot 0 and Slot 4 are missing due to the built-in language and Z80 cards, however, there is an additional slot at position 0 that holds the ROM board. This solution has been chosen because there was not enough space for the ROMs on the main board. Both versions were sold under many different names and brands, e.g. "Orange II", "MEWA-48", "Computer", "PineApple", etc. In Germany, you could buy them as empty PCBs, as kits, as assembled boards and as complete systems built into Apple II-like or PC-like cases in every electronic-, computer-, or department store. These systems can use any kind of Apple II ROM including IBS Forth. Using Applesoft BASIC was popular but not legal. If you count these systems as one each, your number will exceed 10.000. If you count them as two basic designs, only a few dozens will remain. Really interesting designs were the Laser 128 series, the Basis 108, the IBS Space 8x series - these manufacturers did much more than just cloning the Apple II circuit. Patrick