Charles Forbin wrote: > I recently acquired two original ]['s. The motherboard on one is > copyright 1978 and starts in Applesoft BASIC even with the Language > Card removed. The motherboard ROM chips are also copyright 1978 > (there are tiny stickers on them). I once read that the presence of a > certain single pin in the upper right corner of this board makes it a > "Revision 1" board, so I think that's what this is. The handwritten > number in the upper left corner is 8001. Given the date, it almost guaranteed to have been a II+. I believe it should likely be a Rev 4 board. If so then above the 6502, between slots 3 & 4 should be the word REV and in the hole at the bottom of slot 4 should be the number 4. Also in the Rev 4 all the 16K memory select blocks are soldered in and not removable. If I'm wrong on that, then pull out the 6502 and under it will be the revision number. That doesn't apply to the boards with 1979 copyrights. It's at least two years too late to be a Rev 1. > The second ]['s motherboard is copyright 1979 and looks slightly > different from the other board. There's a lot less green and more > brown. In the '78 motherboard, there were a few chips alongside the > left side that each said "16K 16K 16K" (under the label "MEMORY > SELECT"); they are not present here, nor does it look like there ever > was a place for them. The single pin I mentioned from the other board > is also not here. The number in the upper left is 8031. I haven't > tested this unit to see if it starts up in Applesoft without the > Language Card. On the second board at the feft side of the motherboard should be a set of numbers over the Apple 1979. Something like 820-0044. Whatever they are will identify the revision. > Basically, I'm trying to verify the authenticity of these machines. I > know that, on an original ][, one could access Applesoft from the > Language or Firmware Cards, or load it from disk or cassette, but was > it possible to physically replace the motherboard Integer BASIC ROM > chips with Applesoft chips? I'm also wondering what the chance is > that either motherboard is in fact a ][+ motherboard. I know the ][+ > was released in 1979, but does that mean its motherboards would only > have copyright dates from '79 onward? Many people replaced the Integer basic ROMs with Applesoft ones. One ROM set or the other could be placed in any II or II+ board. The copyright dates were only copright dates and didn't differentiate the II or II+. The II+ came out when the boards with the 1978 copyright were still being made. Since both your boards were made in 1980, there's almost no chance they were ever anything but a II+. Wayne sark314@hotmail.com (Charles Forbin) writes: >Basically, I'm trying to verify the authenticity of these machines. I >know that, on an original ][, one could access Applesoft from the >Language or Firmware Cards, or load it from disk or cassette, but was >it possible to physically replace the motherboard Integer BASIC ROM >chips with Applesoft chips? I'm also wondering what the chance is >that either motherboard is in fact a ][+ motherboard. I know the ][+ >was released in 1979, but does that mean its motherboards would only >have copyright dates from '79 onward? The only difference between an Apple ][ and an Apple ][+ is the ROMs. If it has Integer BASIC and the old Monitor it is a ][. If it has Applesoft BASIC and the Autostart monitor it is a ][+. Look for the Microsoft & Apple copyrights on the Applesoft ROMs. The motherboard came in a number of revisions: Non-RFI - p/n 820-0001-XX (found under 6502 socket on early revs, near F1 later) 00 no aux video pin, 3x RAM size selector blocks 01-06 aux video pin, 3x RAM size selector blocks 07 aux video pin, no RAM size selector blocks RFI - p/n 820-0044-XX (near F1) A-D just minor changes to improve RFI -- David Wilson School of IT & CS, Uni of Wollongong, Australia I believe an acurate time-line would help. I don't have the exact dates, but basically it would go something like this. (please correct and expand this time line) '77 to 78 is a II REV.00 - REV.04 '79 to '80 is Both II and II+ REV. 04 - REV.07 '81 to xx is a II+ RFI I have never seen any documentation from Apple that talks about an original II having autostart and applesoft roms, other then adding the language card or 12k rom card. Did apple offer the autostart rom as an official upgrade? Kevin On 5 Sep 2001 17:51:53 -0700, sark314@hotmail.com (Charles Forbin) wrote: >david@uow.edu.au (David Wilson) wrote in message news:<3b95bcf5$1@news.uow.edu.au>... > >> The only difference between an Apple ][ and an Apple ][+ is the ROMs. >> >> If it has Integer BASIC and the old Monitor it is a ][. >> If it has Applesoft BASIC and the Autostart monitor it is a ][+. >> Look for the Microsoft & Apple copyrights on the Applesoft ROMs. > >I think I should set about this with the intention of *disproving* >that it's an original ][. It's conceivable that someone replaced all >the original motherboard ROMs with Autostart and Applesoft, so now I >have to make sure that the board itself couldn't have been placed in >original ][ systems. Since the meaning of the handwritten number in >the upper left corner of the motherboard is still apparently up for >debate in this thread, I turn to the revision #'s of the board: > >> Non-RFI - p/n 820-0001-XX (found under 6502 socket on early revs, near F1 later) >> >> 00 no aux video pin, 3x RAM size selector blocks >> 01-06 aux video pin, 3x RAM size selector blocks >> 07 aux video pin, no RAM size selector blocks >> >> RFI - p/n 820-0044-XX (near F1) >> >> A-D just minor changes to improve RFI > >The number under the 6502 on the '78 board is 820-0001-04, so I guess >that means it's a Revision 4. The question then, is whether or not >Revision 4 boards were ever used in original ][s. If the answer is >no, then it's a ][+ board; if yes, then I need something else to help >me pin down whether it's a ][ or ][+ board (unless there is absolutely >no difference between Rev 4 boards in the two machines [ROM chips >aside], meaning I'll never know). > >Incidentally, I just visited >http://ground.ecn.uiowa.edu/apple2/MiscInfo/Hardware/IIpart.revisions >-- is this person right in identifying a Rev 4 board with an original >][?