If you can think of any others that haven't been mentioned or gone into detail (such as The EIDOLON), then please make a posting. Jay Edwards Your best 3-D 8-bit Apple II game list? AIRHEART: fighting self-regenerating robots on a waterworld while on a quest for artifacts that will prove yourself worthy of saving the princeling. BALLBLAZERS: one-on-one robotic soccer with multiple playing levels for robotic opponents or playing against a human opponent. I especially remember being surprised at the smoothness and speed of Ballblazer. The EIDOLON is another good 3-D action game. Details???? Then, you have adventures which present something like 3-D views. ALTERNATE REALITY: THE DUNGEON does a very nice job in plain hires, especially since you can see monsters approaching in real time. So do several of the SSI AD&D adventures and DARK HEART OF UUKRUL. BARD'S TALE'S 3-D is pretty good, too. In double-hires, MIGHT AND MAGIC II, WINDWALKER, and DRAGON WARS have good 3-D displays. STELLAR 7. Stellar 7 did offer very good speed and realistic perspective. On the other hand, the open 'wire frame' modeling made for kind of a raw look. ARCTIC FOX. Another wire-framed battle tank game played on the Siberian plain. SPACE ROGUE. Space Rogue was chiefly a picture-text adventure (a very good one); but,yes, it did have some memorable 3-D sequences. (Seem to recall that trips between systems involved piloting through realistic looking worm-holes. There was also a pretty stiff arcade-style challenge involving a monster on a space station.) Actually, some of Space Rogue's 3-D technique shows up a few years later in an early Tex Murphy adventure for PC. How about SPACE VIKINGS, FLIGHT SIM II and CHUCK YEAGER'S ADVANCE FLIGHT TRAINER? TEST DRIVE. Joyriding in a variety of roadsters. Winding roads, cliffs, on coming traffic, debris and a black and white unit chasing you down. NIGHT DRIVER. It's not Test Drive, but it's the only Apple II 3-D game on my hard drive that kicks! Yes, it translates beautifully to ProDOS and runs off of the hard drive. It's just dots on each side, dashed lines down the middle of the road, attitude, and vanishing point meets crack-the-whip. No other cars, no billboards, no scenery. Just you, the road and the SOUND of your engine (yep, that's right, sound). The speed in which the game runs on a stock Apple IIe is incredible. You have a choice of five levels of difficulties and four speeds ( "I can do this," "This is a little tougher," "Hey--I'm almost this good," and "WAIT FOR ME!") SKYFOX. A high-speed jump jet, it had radar, autopilot to the combat zone, both land and air battlefields and the smoothest 3-D perspective graphics around. I believe that it also works with that popular 8-bit sound card. Actually, Skyfox's little, attacking tanks remind me a lot of the graphics in the Macintosh game "Nanosaur." They both have characters that basically home in on your location and graphics that become more and more detailed as they get closer to you. Nanosaur for the //e, now that would be nice. I may be out of date, but the first game that made me feel like 3D was a 2D game ! In 4D if you entered its spirit..... thanks to the voice.....it was CASTLE WOLFENSTEIN....but so many years ago..... ELITE. My chief criticism of Elite's 3-D space combat is that good battle tactics requires firing the moment you pick up an enemy blip. Letting enemy ships get close enough to see any real detail means taking too many hits. Still, I've logged way too many hours on Elite to not like the game (even though it may not actually be winable). When it comes to winning, yes; it is possible to figure out your 'character' parms and change them to strengthen your character, increase rank, soup-up your ship, or get past some barrier. And/or you can crack the copy protection so that you have access to the game code and can modify the game to get around some glitch. (Or, you can find out enough about the game from the code to solve a game problem without making changes.) For example, it is not too difficult to create a better ship, give yourself $$$, or to force an "Elite" ranking. The problem in Elite is that you want to get around what appears to be a gap in the adventure so that the game can progress normally. Specifically, you finally get to the big showdown battle with the Evil space ship (the one mentioned in the scenario novella). It's not an easy battle; but, by then you are rated "Deadly" with lots of combat, thousands of kills, and a ship you've armed to the teeth. You win and obtain some goodie (think it's a Naval Power Pack). Then, as far as I can tell, nothing! It looks like you should get a promotion to "Elite" and that either the game should declare that you've won and end OR the game should point you to some biggee mission against the Thargoids (bug-type invaders). Possibly, the game does have a special sequence after your victory over the Evil ship; but, it may get circumvented if you happen to press some key before the message is displayed. Or, the game may assume that you will dock at the station orbiting the planet where the battle occurred and obtain special information. There may be a message saying to go somewhere to meet with the Dark Wheel or it may outline a new mission. But, once you've been flagged as having gotten the message (which you missed due to a keypress before the message was displayed), you never get a chance to see it again. So, yes; it is _possible_ to fix the problem, contine play, and win. However, because you wish to avoid a meat axe approach which spoils play, this sort of fix is among the more difficult to pull off.