AFC JoyceM: Welcome to Apple II Music & Sound tonights topic is 'Copyright" AFC JoyceM: Hi Mike and Randgia MikeL73202: Hi just running through AFC JoyceM: Lot of people enter then leave just as quickly AFC JoyceM: Hi Ribes and Welcome to Apple II Music & Sound Ribes : hi is this the copyright conference AFC JoyceM: Yes...Copyright is our subject AFC Eddie : This is it! Ribes : someone out there running into problems? AFC JoyceM: Do you have some thoughts or comments, Ribes on Copyright? Ribes : actually, i may be writing about it for a national publication. i'm interested in case studies AFC Eddie : That would be interesting, Ribes. Are you doing a review of interesting cases? AFC JoyceM: Eddie, the Mac music & sound has been discussing copyrights too? AFC Eddie : Yes, it's really a hot topic right now, especially as it relates to uploads and downloads! Ribes : exactly. know of any, eddie? can you spell it out a bit more? AFC Eddie : For instance, the we are struggling with defining a policy of what music files of copyrighted material are acceptable for release. But above and beyond that, the more general issue of the copyright of MIDI and other music files is a big issue right now, both online and in the courts! Ribes : where can i get more information? AFC Eddie : One great source of information is the Library of Congress, which has lots of forms and informational brochures available. Many are also available at most public libraries. AFC JoyceM: How does one define what is copyrighted and what is not? Is all music copyrighted? AFC Eddie : It's important to note the difference between owning a copyright and having the right to enforce it. If you create a work, such as a song, you automatically have a copyright in it, as soon as it is "fixed" which means, essentially, when it is complete. But unless that copyright is registered, you can't bring an infringement suit to enforce it! Durnota : Hello AFC JoyceM: So, for example, a painting, you could add the C to your signature? AFC Eddie : Hi! We're discussing copyrights. Anyone have any particular questions as we continue? Durnota : How is everyone doing this night BenF210 : hi all is this the copyright place AFC JoyceM: Yes, Ben AFC Eddie : Well, the copyright notice is another issue. In order to preserve your copyright in the work, you should make sure that a notice accompanies all distributed copies of the work. But even if you affix the notice, the registration is required for enforcement. Durnota Stop copying :) BenF210 : i was gonna ask something but never mind bye AFC JoyceM: What about BMI and the like for music, do radio stations and the like pay them a 'copyright' fee to play their music? AFC Eddie : groups such as BMI, ASCAP and others monitor radio play of copyrighted songs to assure the collection of royalties for composers. Ribes : eddie, going back to the download and upload issue, are writers of music suing to protect their rights AFC Eddie : Ribes, the answer is "Yes." But it will be a long time until there is a large enough number of court decisions to really help define the law in this area, so there are now many gray areas. Liz0000 : is this where the conference is being held? AFC JoyceM: Liz, the conference on copyright, yes. Liz0000 : thanks :) AFC Eddie : Questions? Ribes : do you know of particular cases? and why is it gray? isn't the composition copyrighted? AFC Eddie : The composition is copyrighted, but there are many questions about what constitutes an infringement. For instance, is it an infringement if a band plays a copyrighted song at a benefit concert? If not, why should a MIDI file of that performance distributed for free be an infringement? FOTOGBILL : Are you familiar with photography's ASMP Amer. Society of Media Photogs.? Ribes : sorry, but what's MIDI? AFC Eddie : Sorry, MIDI stands for Musical Instrument Digital Interface, and is a universal computer format for distributing musical material, like songs. AFC JoyceM: The discussion tonight is Copyright's as it relates to music & sound... AFC Eddie : MIDI files can be read by almost all computer platforms, thus easily distributable over online services, etc. For example, here on AOL there are MIDI files of hundreds of songs in the Mac, Apple II and PC areas, and most can be used by all three computers. AFC Eddie : Questions or comments? FOTOGBILL : They have recently formed an ASCAP / BMI type liscencing agency for photography....ASMP Ribes : ok, so I would think musicians and composers are pretty upset on this AFC Eddie : Can you tell us more about that, FOTOBILL? AFC Eddie : Sorry, FOTOGBILL! AFC JoyceM: Hi Andy FOTOGBILL : ASMP is the recognized professional org for photographers.... they lobby hard for our copyrirights and have started a liscencing bureau for photographic c rights. It is hard to say how or what motivated them AFC JoyceM: Because artists (painters) are copying photos? Fotogbill? AFC Eddie : Had to be $$$, FOTOGBILL! Ribes : how is the copyright issue different for music and sound than from text or photos? FOTOGBILL : True but Kodak has also anounced their participation in a digital network of image exchange AFC Eddie : It's really the same basic issue. How does one protect one's right to an artistic creation? FOTOGBILL : I think that was some motivation.... Yes and images are harded to trace back to source Ribes : what are some ideas floating around to protect the copyrights on on-line services? AFC Eddie : Other questions or comments? FOTOGBILL : Many people are trying encryption schems and "watermarking" on CD Roms... AFC JoyceM: With the art guild that I belong too, our paintings must be original and NOT copied from any source - honor plays a big roll here :) AFC Eddie : Well, here on AOL we are careful about getting the copyright holders' permission before releasing certain items. FOTOGBILL : Honor vs. $$$ you tell me who wins? AFC JoyceM: We all know that answer, Fotogbill - sad AFC Eddie : And we have been contacted by some holders that they wish NOT to have certain items made available for public download. Ribes : right, but they don't get compensated for each download, do they? AFC Eddie : No, they don't. FOTOGBILL : AOL is somewhat a closed system whereas the world trade is not... MewsBooks : am i in the right place for discussion of copyright? AFC Eddie : You got it, MewsBooks! AFC JoyceM: Yes, Mews MewsBooks : So what have I missed by just coming on? FOTOGBILL : We have graphic designers and art directors flaunting by admission their infringments AFC JoyceM: The only compensation the uploaders get is that free uploading time. AFC Eddie : And the uploader may not be the creator. AFC JoyceM: True, Eddie. Hockey Hog: Hi everyone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! FOTOGBILL : Many disscussions going on about scraping intelectual prop laws altogether AFC Eddie : I can't see that happening, FOTOGBILL! FOTOGBILL : in well read books relating to computers GeoUser : BILL, that would ruin the entertainment industry. There's too much money involved with intellectual property, so it won't happen. FOTOGBILL : I can't either the capitalist was is the true course of enlightenment (like right on man)... AFC JoyceM: This is a discussion on Copyright. FOTOGBILL : sorry about that... AFC Eddie : Other questions or comments? GeoUser : Well, nobody's chatting. GPFiremark: Hi all - Is this the place for the Copyright law discussion? FOTOGBILL : Very good chat gotta go (I run the Sun Photo Chat) I like your style! AFC JoyceM: I presume copyright laws and ideas will go on indefinetly? Not resolved in my lifetime? AFC Eddie : This is the place! AFC JoyceM: Thanks, Fotogbill MewsBooks : any discussion of electronic rights? Authors royalties? Is there an author here under comtr Reg13 : OK, I'm a writer. I wrote a computer glossary for my company. Can I publish it on my own? Appleboy2 : HI GeoUser : Reg, you were paid by the company, so it's theirs. AFC Eddie : Reg, do you have a contract with your company? Appleboy2 : ANY new graphics GPFiremark: Hi all, I am an Entertainment attorney in Los Angeles, I'm well-versed on Copyright.. may I participate?? Reg13 : No contract. I just work there. FOTOGBILL : Only if you sign a release when employed as WORK FOR HIRE GeoUser : If you work there, you do have an informal contract. AFC JoyceM: Yes, GPF and welcome AFC Eddie : Well, there is a good chance the copyright is owned by the company, but there may be other relevant facts! GPFiremark: Thanks AFC JOyce Reg13 : Suppose I use what I know to write another glossary? AFC Eddie : A contract could provide, for instance, that you get to retain the rights to your own creations. GeoUser : GPF, in any room, just jump in & start chatting! It's okay to interrupt on AOL ;) GPFiremark: Any other lawyers here? AFC Eddie : <----Another lawyer. FOTOGBILL : If you don't violate propriety info and use your own $ should be oK? GeoUser : But in the absence of said contract, the stuff probably belongs to the company. Phyton : Hi, Folks! GPFiremark: Hi Phy MewsBooks : yes. Ribes : firemark, do you think writers, artists, etc should get more compensation when their stuff is redone inother electronica formats? GPFiremark: Aboslutely... IF they didn't sign it away in a "new media" clause" (most do) Reg13 : Suppose I write a poem on a company computer during lunch break. Is it mine? Ribes : do they have a choice? AFC Eddie : Reg, it's not company time that matters. What matters is if it's in the course of your employment. GeoUser : Reg, if that's not part of your normal work, then it's probably yours. FOTOGBILL : Bell labs buys their employees patents for $1 and developes them to billions... AlexV23241: is this the copyright forum things AFC Eddie : Yes Alex. AFC JoyceM: Yes, Alex GPFiremark: I have tried to negotiate the new media clause, but it's really not subject to negotiation AlexV23241: this is boring GPFiremark: So leave Reg13 : What's a new media clause? GeoUser : hehehe Ribes : that's too bad. do you represent the writers? AFC Eddie : Hi, Softy! AFC JoyceM: Hi Larry GeoUser : bbl AFC JoyceM: [] AFC Softy : Hi Eddie... :) AFC Softy : {{{Joyce}}} MewsBooks : what is the new media clause you're referring to? GPFiremark: A clause that says "Artist grants the rights to producer ... in any and all media whether now known or hereafter devised..." FOTOGBILL : VG GPF! AFC Softy : (I worked late and missed AUT so I thought I'd make it up here. ;) MewsBooks : it is negotiable depending on your clout and who you are dealing with AFC JoyceM: Reg13 : Of course about all of what I do would only be of value to my "producer'. . . GPFiremark: A famous case involving a failure to use a new media clause involved Peggy Lee...She had a deal to sing on Disney's "The lady and the Tramp" with no new media clause..the film was released on VHS tape, and she sued (and won)... Reg13 : i REMEMBER THAT! GPFiremark: VHS was a medium "hereafter devised" AFC JoyceM: I read about that, GPF Reg13 : Oops! sorry. PioneerPPJ: GPF, How can I retain you? GPFiremark: That is why these clauses exist, without them, the future exploitation of a work is very hard GPFiremark: Pioneer - I'll send you private mail... FOTOGBILL : Bye ! Thanks! PioneerPPJ: Thanks !!! :-) AFC Eddie : Sorry, folks, I got bumped!: But I'm back! MewsBooks : yours Reg13 : that so, Host? Dogcow M : Moof! AFC Eddie : Any more questions or comments? GPFiremark: Ribes- Done! MewsBooks : see any instance question above AFC JoyceM: Would you all like to see another Copyright chat? GPFiremark: What you write here is yours, I think! (better read the user agreement) RJus : Hello! Ribes : thanks, GPF. Probably next week! GPFiremark: Sure... another Copyrihgt chat would be good. I have a suggestion though... RJus : Why are you leaving? Bloody Law: Hi, all. Is this the copyright discussion? AFC Eddie : Yes, Bloody, it is. AFC JoyceM: Yes... PioneerPPJ: GPF When Copyright is transfered with a year reversion clause do I need written authorization to get it back? DavidW3328: I Guess So Trance trp: TOS- Lame. You've got Internet access that requires no TOS, ah a double standard, kinda like the government Bloody Law: Thanks, Eddie. Something tells me I got here late . . . AFC JoyceM: What is your suggestion, GPF? GPFiremark: I'm not sure, Pioneer... I'd have to see all the documentation of the deal... AFC Eddie : I think it would be a good idea if we kept away from detailed personal legal questions. That's really not within the scope of this chat! RJus : What kind of computer do you have Bloody Law? AFC Eddie : No online chat can replace the advice you get from your own attorney! DavidW3328: What About Movie Captures From Cable Access??? Bloody Law: It's a Leading Technology . . . Reg13 : What about something broadcast on CB radio. Suppose I tape record it. Is it mine or the speakers? GPFiremark: Joyce - less free-form discussion. If you have experts in the chat, develop a protocol for "raising a hand" to ask questions... the welcome message should outline this RJus : Funny Bloody Law: originally 386-DX25, upgraded to 486DX2-66, with new momboard . . . Trance trp: Vote libertarian! end all this government intervention AFC Eddie : If a copyrighted work was broadcast over CB, it would still belong to the owner! AFC Eddie : GP, you are right, but we didn't anticipate this kind of crowd here tonite! Trance trp: end clipper too! AFC JoyceM: We can do that, GPF - this discussion was to see how popular it was going to be and see what problems we would run into. Your idea is well taken and considered. Bloody Law: RJus, why? RJus : Bye all. Good night GPFiremark: Good Idea Eddie - Broad legal questions can be ethically answered, but not specifics Reg13 : How necessary is it really to put "copyright" on a document? Bloody Law: Did I miss most of this? Dang those billable hours! GPFiremark: Joyce - given some notice I'l be happy to help out wiht the logistics next time. Bloody Law: Reg13: technically, you don't really have to anymore, but it's not a good idea not to . . . AFC JoyceM: We will repeat this chat in July.... LCGeorge : Reg, it pays to be sure. always mark it if you care about it Nazgul One: Hmmm.... Good idea. Ribes : Bye all. gotta catch the end of the knicks game! thanks. GPFiremark: Reg13 - Not REALLY necessary but it's a good idea. The Copyright exists without it Bloody Law: use the copyright notice. It can't hurt, but it can give you headaches if you don't!!! Nazgul One: Just in case.. Reg13 : I hear the Library of congress can ask for a couple copies of anything you write, and If you don't send it you're in trouble. GPFiremark: Joyce - What does AFC mean? LCGeorge : On the other hand, if you want it free to all, you should say so! AFC Eddie : It means Apple Forum Consultant! Bloody Law: Reg13: there are specific requirements for "deposits" of a work . . . and if you're going to register, you have to provide the Copyright Office with the work GPFiremark: In order to REGISTER your copyrihgt, you'll be required to submit a specimen to the Library LCGeorge : have to go now -good night AFC JoyceM: AFC - Apple Forum Consultant GPFiremark: OIC! Scabbies : what is the discussion here about? Bloody Law: Goodnight, all! Back to billables! AFC Eddie : We're discussing copyright, Scabbies. GPFiremark: ha! Reg13 : I also hear they'll take anything you send 'em, too. GPFiremark: Yep, Most of it ends up on the trash, but you're required to send it AFC JoyceM: Okay....next Copyright discussion will be on July 20, at 10pm ET. Keyword: AGS GeoUser : Are we discussing the deposit? GPFiremark: Yes Geo... Jwmhr : whenever I try to get ANSII foratted graphics files from newsgroups,they appear to be incomplete. Why GeoUser : I have a question...sort of hypothetical situation. AFC JoyceM: Hi Ian AFC Eddie : Sorry, Jwnhr, we're discussing Copyright tonite! IRSMan : hiya Joyce LovyDovy : Are you patent agents or attorneys specializing in copyright/TM law? PeggyT : ? IRSMan : danged, did I miss DaveS? :) GPFiremark: kewl Levi 101 : hi DavidW3328: What Geo GeoUser : Suppose you did not register the item.....but, you mailed a copy of the item in question to yourself......would this be permissible as evidence of ownership in a court of law? GPFiremark: Some of us are lawyers PeggyT : was this limited to copyright on software? Levi 101 : I am sorry! LovyDovy : Geo there are common law copyright laws in various states. What state are you in? GeoUser : Mississippi. GPFiremark: No... that "poor man's copyright" is of little value. GeoUser : Why? GPFiremark: There is no longer a common law copyright. AFC Eddie : Copyright is strictly governed by federal law, at least in the United States. MonkeyFun : copyright is vested in the creator when the work is creator---there is no need for registration any lo GPFiremark: Because the Copyrihgt exists from the moment you create it and "fix it in a tangible medium of expression" (e.g., write it down, tape record it, etc.) GeoUser : So where does this registration thing come in? If I already own the copyright. AFC Eddie : Registration is required for enforcement! GeoUser : I'm just asking questions that I keep getting contradictory answers from. GPFiremark: Registration is required before you can sue for infringement PeggyT : registered copyright items carry more weight in courts IRSMan : yeah, unregistered copyrights aren't generally accepted by courts Reg13 : Sppose I tell someone a neat idea for a copyrightable thing, then later see this idea in the person's work. Do I own it? GPFiremark: the value of the sealed envelope is the "who created this first" issue... but have you ever tried to send an unsealed envelope through the mail....It works! IMSUZANNEP: is there a copyright form available in this forum? MonkeyFun : ideas arent copyrightable PeggyT : I am currently in an infringment issue and it is maddening AFC JoyceM: No, IMSUZANNE IRSMan : ideas aren't, implementations are :) AFC Eddie : Well, folks, it's time to officially close this chat, although it can continue unofficially for as long as you like! IRSMan : heh PeggyT : ImSuz there are several different forms for specific areas Reg13 : Thanks. I enjoyed the clear feedback. 6/8/94 11:06:31 PM Closing Log file.