Apple II Music & Sound Conference Wednesday, April 23, 1989 10:00 p.m. EDT Subject: MIDI, keyboards and Audio Animator Forum Leader: Tim Barwick AFA Marc Good Evening everyone. Tonight will be a free-for with a focus on MIDI and keyboards. No protocol tonite, and see how it goes? ELECTMUSIC I have some great prices and Keyboards: The Yamaha YS 100 List for $1195 ...Sale $359.95. The Yamaha YS 200, which is a midi workstation List... $1395...For sale at $429.95 Richbourne Great. I just got a MIDI setup a few days ago! :) AFA Marc What did you get, Gene? Richbourne QUESTION: How do you people feel about the Roland D-5? It's a new board that is virtually identical to the D-10. AFA Marc Is that what you bought? Richbourne Yup, still got a day or so to change my mind, though. AFA Marc I can't recall having seen a review. Anyone else? ELECTMUSIC Gene, Roland equipment is very good and easy to use. I haven't seen any reviews on this product either. AFC JoyceM Gene, do you know what the specs are? Richbourne It was released a few months ago. Specs are the same as d-10. (if that helps) AFC JoyceM What changes then did they make, Gene...do you know? Richbourne D-10/20 do not have parameters for the four types of patch effect. The d-5 does not have the reverb-related parameters of the d10/20. Timbre and tone parameters are both fully compatible. d-5 does not have a reverb switch setting for each key number. Richbourne Greg, the MIDI MS still didn't work right, even with a metronome. AFC JoyceM What problems with MS, Gene? ELECTMUSIC Gene, check out the Yamaha YS 200, it looks like a real great keyboard. Richbourne Yes, I plan to go to Sam Ash tomorrow. Richbourne Joyce, the MIDI doesn't work with my apple MIDI box and roland d-5. this is with MusicStudio only. ELECTMUSIC I am surprised about MStudio Midi AFC JoyceM I think MS does have some bugs...I have problems with my Yamaha PSR-41 with the same thing. I have to count when MS is loading to about 16 and then turn on the keyboard! ELECTMUSIC Is still recording ll the same values of notes? AFA Marc Gene, what else have you tried it with? D-Tune? Richbourne Yep, Greg. Richbourne Marc, Mastertracks Pro. ELECTMUSIC Marc, Gene's problem is that MS records all of the same note values. AFA Marc Gene, I have problems with the MIDI part of MS too... generally consider it unusable, myself. After MT-Pro, I just can't deal with it! ELECTMUSIC Have you seen this problem? Richbourne I wish MS could overlay notes over other notes more easily than with Append, that would make MIDI input much more usable. MTpro is a monster to figure out! ELECTMUSIC I had another student with the same problem, but can't figure out what's wrong. Richbourne But for just recording like a tape recorder I LOVE IT! ELECTMUSIC Has anyone else had the problem of MS recording every note value the same? AFC JoyceM Not me, Greg...works fine in that aspect. AFA Marc [don't even use the MIDI record] AFC JoyceM Has he tried using an 8th or 16th note..as the choice? Richbourne Well I never used MIDI in any of my stuff on ALink. It's so hard to get a good drum line to back up a MIDI-recorded melody, because of the "append" thing I mentioned above. ELECTMUSIC Gene, are you using the default values for the modem port? Richbourne Hmm. No! :) Could that be it? I have it set for logging into ALink. Why should that make a difference, though? ELECTMUSIC Marc? AFA Marc Aha, try turning off the buffering? ALink expects it, other things can be confused by it. AFC JoyceM I have my buffering OFF all the time, even when on ALink and have no problems. Richbourne Hmmmmmmm this is putting a big smile on my face! AFA Marc Actually, those settings are just supposed to affect communication between the port and external device (modem, etc), but it sometimes has an effect depending on the software. Richbourne yes, and MS -is- a custom-written piece! AFA Marc Joyce, my requirement for buffering may have to do with the use of 2400 baud. Richbourne Same with me. AFC JoyceM Also have 2400 baud! Richbourne OH YES I remember now, if buffering is turned off on my external 2400 baud modem then I CANNOT get past the "Welcome to..." screen when logging onto AppleLink. AFA Marc Yeah, me to, Gene. ELECTMUSIC Gene, My I also ask you if you have a MSTudio version that has not been altered? Richbourne Yes I tried with my stock copy, same thing. AFA Marc Sometimes, MT-PRo won't find MIDI until it's reset to turn off buffering, etc. Richbourne My MT-Pro works fine with the funky modem settings. Richbourne Phil, is there any new news on Audio Animator? AE PhilM Rich, September 22 (for Applefest) is the target release date for AA. AFC JoyceM Great, Phil....will meet you then and see AA...can't wait. Richbourne >phil -- great!! :) AE PhilM I don't know if I'm going, but if I do be sure to stop by and say hello. AFC JoyceM Gene, have we helped you in any way with MS? Richbourne Yes absolutely. I will try the buffering thing. I just hope it works! AFA Marc Remember Lon's comments about the new Emu PROTEUS? a few weeks ago?? The latest Music & Technology has a VERY positive review of the unit, BUT says it's shipping now (it ain't). $995 list (street $790 is the best I've found). AFC JoyceM I am not sure that 'box' is for me...I have enough trouble with what I have now! AFA Marc What it has is the best sounds of the EMU III (a megathousand dollar box), in a single rack space. 32 voice multi-timbral. ELECTMUSIC Phil. have you tested AA with all of the Midi software for the GS?, i.e. MT-Pro? AE PhilM Electmusic, I tested it with MSJR, and of course AA. It doesn't work with DTune, but I spoke with Bill B. and he is gonna make it work. AFC JoyceM Oh, great news, Phil....thanks to Bill too. ELECTMUSIC How about MStudio and MWriter? AE PhilM I will fax him the 8530 setup code and he will incorporate it into DTune...will not be hard for him to do. AFA Marc Phil, P-Ware is doing a revision of MW this fall anyway. Let Joe know. AE PhilM It does work with Music Writer....they are near us in Grapevine and we had lunch with them last week. AE PhilM I don't have the latest version of Music Studio...do you know if they use the MIDI tools? If Music Studio uses the MIDI tools it will probably work just fine. I can try and get a copy to make sure. ELECTMUSIC MStudio is a very popular GS program, I would recommend compatibility. AFC JoyceM I would too, Greg, I basically use MS for most things....DTunes, however has the best sounds! AE PhilM I'll talk to Activision and see what gives. ELECTMUSIC Phil, I would think critics would pick up that as a problem! AE PhilM So do I, but even if they wrote their own MIDI driver...it would be VERY simple to make the changes to make it work. AFC JoyceM That would be a very important factor in my buying AA. AE PhilM Chances are good that it will work without changes. Richbourne Apple's Apple.Midi does not work with my keyboard- doesn't recognize the MIDI with MusicStudio, that is! ELECTMUSIC Phil, if you can't get anywhere with Activision, the developer is available here on Alink. I believe his Email address is Audlight AE PhilM AudLight...humm did he write MS? Richbourne Ric Forrester is the guy. ELECTMUSIC Yep, he wrote MS! AE PhilM I'll send him mail and ask him if they use the MIDI tools. AFA Marc He should know (he's now with Apple programming! AE PhilM If not, again chances are that it would be a 1 or two line patch in the 8530 setup code. Richbourne Phil, do you think modem port buffering being on or off should have any effect on the effectiveness of a MIDI interface? AE PhilM Possible we could make it work on our end. ELECTMUSIC There is also a new upgrade for MStudio- which uses GSOS 4.0 and is $5.00 to registered owners. AE PhilM Richbourne, the 8530 will buffer 3 bytes of data...there is no way thru software to turn that off...It shouldn't make any difference. Richbourne I mean thru the control panel, modem port settings. Richbourne <== just wanted his opinion :) AFA Marc Phil, I think Gene means with the Apple external box. AE PhilM The control panel IS software...perhaps you are talking about the higher level buffering. This chip has a FIFO buffer that you have no control over. It will automatically buffer up to 3 bytes of data. Richbourne So buffering should not make any difference? (modem port setting being on or off that is) AE PhilM No, the buffering the chip does is a very low level that software does not have any control over. Richbourne What about on ANY MIDI interface, in general? AE PhilM Other interfaces, such as the Passport interface use a different ACIA (the 6850) that does not do any buffering. Richbourne I'm re-asking this 'cause I know Phil has the programming wizadry to know! AE PhilM It really depends on the interface, the control panel will have no effect on AA since we are using the 8530....but not the one in the GS. This one is on the Audio Animator card. Richbourne Thanks for the info. This chat has been very informative for me! ELECTMUSIC Phil, has there been any plans to release the AA software separately as new program? AE PhilM Electmusic, we would have to add features to the software so that it could compete with programs like Master Tracks. Generally, I think the program is much faster and has a better feel than MTracks but it now lacks a lot of it's features. ELECTMUSIC Outside of the fact that it only has 8 tracks, what major features are missing? AE PhilM BTW - we are using the standard MIDI file format for everything and in MTJR it takes about 2 minutes to "Import" a test file and we can do it in about 7 seconds from AA. So we have found the standard MIDI file format adequate for all of our needs without sacrificing speed in loading and saving to that format. AE PhilM Electmusic, it doesn't have step record, or note editing. ELECTMUSIC How do you fix mistakes? AFC JoyceM Do you see a future for note editing? AE PhilM The handling of the conductor track is not a full featured as MTracks. You edit at the measure level, like MTJR. It does have punch in, thru, keyin, bounce tracks, quantize, transpose, change velocity, cut, copy, paste, undo, loop, record filters, channel filters, and playback filters. ELECTMUSIC That's good for a small sequencer. So, it sounds like the step record feature and the 8 tracks are the major differences between MTJr. and AA. AE PhilM It's no slouch...but then again it's not Performer or MT Pro, or even MTJR. Right, those are the biggies! ELECTMUSIC Could you foresee a market price of about $80 for this program? AFC JoyceM Well, I am looking forward to seeing and hearing AA...do hope you get MusicStudio to be compatible. AE PhilM Well, you also get a digitizer software and sound editor too....we could probably make that work with all the popular sound boards and sell it for $80. Yeah, that's not a bad idea....but if the AA sales are strong that probably won't happen. ELECTMUSIC The reason I ask, is that the GS could always use another Midi/Music program, and a inexpensive, EASY to use software product might encourage more users! I think AE is in a GOOD position to encourage such customers with a product like this. AFC JoyceM Yes, Greg, it could. AE PhilM I would like to go all the way and add more tracks, step editing, and full support for the conductor track....maybe in my spare time! I think it will be a good program for beginners....at work people stop by my office and I get a chance to test the program on people that don't know anything about MIDI or Music....they seem to catch on very quickly and it's hard to get rid of them after that. ELECTMUSIC MTjr.is TOO MUCH for beginners in the Midi world. AFC JoyceM Greg, I also agree to that. AE PhilM I'm glad you said that Electmusic,I felt the same way, but then again I wanted to add all those features. simple fact is that I have run out of time. AFC JoyceM Phil, there is always the update package! ELECTMUSIC Phil, release it as it is, just allow it to work with other interfaces and charge $80. Look at it as an entry level product. AE PhilM We'll have to see Electmusic...I can ask and see what gives. They will insist on seeing how well AA sales are first tho, it's looking pretty good. Last I heard there was a big backlog of orders for it. ELECTMUSIC If it sells, and there is interest, then develop a more advance product with more features. AE PhilM That's a good Idea. Problem is that they want me to get off this project soon. I currently have 3 more projects in the queue. ELECTMUSIC AE already has developed a telecommunication program from such hardware products as Datalink, why not do the same with Midi (it really is the same situation)? AE PhilM Electmusic, not really. That was a complete (ground up) creation. Nothing was borrowed from the other program we had, TIC. ELECTMUSIC I guess I was referring to the concept, not the actual development. AE PhilM I agree with everything you say. Another problem at AE is that MIDI is still not fully understood by decision makers or the market for MIDI software....and when they realize that it is a big market and the GS can compete with Mac's in this area, they may change their mind. The *suits* at AE simply read the mags and see MIDI as a buzzword and a lot has been written about it, so they decided (when we we're presented with AA from the french folks) that this was our chance to get into the market. ELECTMUSIC I hope so, Phil. Keep up the great work at AE, I will mention it to others. AFC JoyceM Phil, it looks like AE is still supporting the GS and hope they continue to do so. Thank you for stopping by and keeping us up-to-date on AA's progress. (C)opright Quantum Computer Services and Apple Computer, Inc. Reprinted from AppleLink - Personal Edition