=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- APPLE II MUSIC & SOUND FORUM CONFERENCE LOG September 11, 1991 10 PM ET Topic: Music and Education Forum Leader: Joyce Madden (AFL JoyceM), Forum Assistant: Gene Koh (AFA Gene) Forum Consultants: Greg Dib (ELECTMUSIC), Ed Rosenblatt (AFC Eddie), Lindsay Hough (LindsayGS) Copyright (c) 1991 America Online All Rights Reserved =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- AFL JoyceM Welcome to an Educational chat in Apple II Music & Sound conference. Our guest is Greg Dib, a music teacher in the New York school system. Greg is also known as one of my consultants: ELECTMUSIC. Greg, the floor is yours... ELECTMUSIC Its a pleasure to be online and discuss music education and computers. I would first like to discuss 3 general focal points: 1) In the past: "Drill and Practice" software dominated the Apple II market. 2) Recently, the GS provided a platform for creative (compositional) software 3) The future looks towards hypermedia for student's informational access. Lets discuss some of these areas as they relate to MusicEd. Does anyone have any comments or questions for our discussion? AFC Eddie I do, when you're ready... ELECTMUSIC GA, Eddie AFC Eddie Are you aware of any Apple II software for teaching sight reading and singing? Ear-training, that sort of thing. I guess that would seem to fall into your first category of items. ELECTMUSIC Yes... Alfred makes some Theory software. AFC Eddie Ahhh. ELECTMUSIC Alfred Publishing that is, I am also checking on another Publisher: Electronic Courseware Systems has lots of software for ear training. AFC Eddie Great! AFC Eddie Thanks, Greg, I'd never heard of them. I'll check into it. Thank you. ELECTMUSIC Do you want their address? AFC Eddie If you have it. ELECTMUSIC Phone: 217 359 7099 1210 Lancaster Drive Champaign, Il 61821 AFC Eddie Thanks again! AFL JoyceM Are these programs from Alfred Publ more for the younger music enthusiast? but adaptable for the older just to learn? ELECTMUSIC There are a few others, I'll try to post them in our forum. Basically, these are drill and Practice for all ages. AFL JoyceM That's good to know. ELECTMUSIC So,,, the answer to your question is yes Joyce AFL JoyceM Thanks. Done ELECTMUSIC My expertise is in 2 from above. I am not too knowledgable about the Drill and practice programs. There does seem to be a great deal for the Apple II series, though basically because its such an educational computer. AFA Gene ELECTMUSIC The GS really opened doors for creativity. As I mentioned...in music composition Programs like MStudio and MasterTracks Pro really provide tools for Students to create. Most of the classroom Music teachers in our District are immediately attracted to MStudio. During its heyday, the GS really had it over any other computer platform for MusicEd. AFL JoyceM Why is that, Greg? ELECTMUSIC Well, the interface is really a musical one. They relate to the staff.... and all of the musical rules pretty much apply to the use of MStudio And we all know how much teachers like "rules" AFL JoyceM :) ELECTMUSIC My biggest concern at this point is that this program is no longer published. How do we recommmend programs like MStudio, if they can't be purchased :( AFL JoyceM How do the educators use MusicStudio to teach? That is a BIG problem. What is a good substitute program? ELECTMUSIC At first, they teach arranging... taking a song from sheet music. once the students get the hang of MStudio... some will start to create their own tunes AFL JoyceM Do they use MIDI or input manually? ELECTMUSIC Many will start with simple ideas... and use lots of repetition but thats the name of the game with popular music AFC Eddie Oh, like most pros! AFA Gene Sad but true ELECTMUSIC Most students immediately like MStudio, but performers will gravitate to MIDI software like Mastertracks Pro. AFL JoyceM Todays popular music = NOISE!!! AFC Eddie Joyce, that's what they used to say about Benny Goodman! AFL JoyceM Greg, do the schools all use MIDI now? I am sure you are right, Eddie - I never thought so... :) ELECTMUSIC In some form or other... yes ELECTMUSIC My schools setup: The lab is fully computerized and a compliment of digital and sampling offer the students a wide range of creativity. All equipment is Midi'd. All hardware and software have benn chosen because of ease of understanding (user friendly) and program quality (lack of bugs). First the hardware: Synthesizers: Roland Juno2, Tr505, and S10, Casio Cz101, Yamaha FB01 Computers: (2) Apple IIgs, 1 Meg each, Apple/Passport Midi, AE Datalink Modem Software: CZ Rider, Master Tracks, FB01 Librarian/Editor, SysEx Librarian Future Sound, Music Studio 2.0, Diversi-tune, Musicwriter. Multi-track Tape recorders: (2) Multi trackers (4 tracks each) That's It :) AFL JoyceM Most efficient from my view point :) AFL JoyceM Greg, do you all hook the tape recorders directly to a music programs output or just record form the GS's CPU? AFC Eddie Is the FB01 librarian Apple II software? ELECTMUSIC Most of this equipment is out of date at this time ELECTMUSIC Yes, Eddie AFC Eddie WOW! AFL JoyceM What is FB01 Librarian - can you explain more? ELECTMUSIC The tape recorders are used for final production of students works. Most students don't have a GS... so they need some way of listening to their works. AFA Gene What kind of 4-tracks are they? ELECTMUSIC The FB01 was one of the first midi sound modules....the Librarian/editor was a way of programing the FB01 through SysEx. I would say all are 4 tracks are Instrumentals.... Many would incorporate accoustic instruments. AFL JoyceM FB01 is no longer available? AFA Gene Interesting... a live orchestral accompaniement to an MS song becomes a real possibility! Never thought of it. ELECTMUSIC I also used 4 tracks for Sound Compositions. No the FB01 is no longer available. It is a difficult unit to program. AFL JoyceM And helps you keep on 'time' with the music, Gene. Great idea. AFA Gene When was it released? '83-'84 range? AFC Eddie Probably after that, Gene. ELECTMUSIC We have also used the 4 tracks for instructional part recordings in chorus...but thats somewhat out of my domain :) Thats about right Gene. Originally, it was an expensive module, but dropped down drastically...we bought it for $200 AFA Gene What make are they? ELECTMUSIC Yamaha and ...Fostex AFC Eddie x-15's? ELECTMUSIC Does any one else have any questions or comments about creative software. Yes Eddie AFL JoyceM Greg, you mentioned that the schools are now using MasterTracks, with what other software? ELECTMUSIC Joyce... MTPro is probably the most popular sequencing package because it is so friendly to work with. AFC Eddie And so incredibly powerful! AFL JoyceM (friendly only if you know how to use it!) ELECTMUSIC I am sure some are working with more difficult software, but it must be a difficult road for the student. AFA Gene MasterTracks is cake compared to some other sequencers out there, especially in the msdos world (to use, that is). AFL JoyceM Is DiversiTune used much anymore? ELECTMUSIC I don't think students in schools can really work with DTune AFL JoyceM Why is that, Greg? AFA Gene One can make an analogy... if MTPro is like a 4-track tape recorder, DTune is like a standard 1-track tape recorder. The reason then becomes evident. ELECTMUSIC probably because.....the editing in DTune is just very cumbersome AFL JoyceM Good analogy, Gene :) ELECTMUSIC yes it is Gene AFC Eddie Although it does support up to 32 tracks. And 16 easily. But you're right about editing. ELECTMUSIC True Eddie... but its very difficult to access mistakes in the tracks AFC Eddie Right, Greg! AFA Gene Maybe a better analogy might be a 4-track with no mixer and only one input. AFL JoyceM Hopefully Bill will have a better editing utility on his next release ? AFC Eddie The best way to edit Dtune songs would be a MIDI converter, so we can edit them on MTPRo! AFA Gene Hopefully, Joyce.... is Bill serious about it? ELECTMUSIC I would like to see support for the Midi File Format AFL JoyceM Greg, so what do you see for the future in Music Education? AFL JoyceM True, Eddie. AFL JoyceM Gene, who knows if Bill is serious - he is SO busy with his job..... :) AFC Eddie That's what i do, using my sequencer. ELECTMUSIC I think a great deal of development lies ahead for Hypermedia when it comes to Music Education AFL JoyceM In what sense, Greg? ELECTMUSIC I think HCGS allows the Teacher to develop specifically for his situation!!! This is the biggest proble with Music Ed software... it must be programed - usually by a Non musician. AFC Eddie Doesn't that require the teacher to become familiar with Hypercard programming? ELECTMUSIC I went throught the Library in APR...and found some music stacks... this hopefully will expand. Depends Eddie...I think creating or modifying a stack is not that difficult. I think scripting is a little more difficult, but not as difficult as programing in basic. AFC Eddie Agreed. ELECTMUSIC And considing all of the possibilities... ie. CDRoms... Video Disks, etc.. I think the possiblities are LIMITLESS. I am thinking here interms of Music Ed software AFL JoyceM But will the schools use hypermedia to its fullest? And will the students? ELECTMUSIC Joyce, I truly believe we have just touched the tip of the ice berg with this. We will witness a revolution in information access and music stands to gain tremendiously form the power of Hypermedia. AFL JoyceM Do you think that hypermedia will replace the MusicStudio's and MusicWriter's of today? ELECTMUSIC I don't think so, Joyce AFL JoyceM I agree, Greg, but the learning process is so long compared to using MusicStudio. ELECTMUSIC Just like I don't think a synthesizer will replace the Piano. Well from the Students point of view... its just a matter of moving the mouse. AFA Gene I do see the possibility of a Music Studio-like program (but better) in a hypermedia environment. ELECTMUSIC From the teachers point of view he is being offered the tools of a programmer without the learning curve a programmer must master. AFL JoyceM True, Greg and Gene. ELECTMUSIC I would also think that students will become creative with Hypermedia as well. My concern with Hypermedia is that the GS be there to accomplish the tasks necessary for schools to use. AFL JoyceM Hypermedia does allow most any kind of creativity. Greg, and the GS needs more that 1.25 meg to run HCGS. ELECTMUSIC Unfortunately, we don't see the PR for that to flourish AFL JoyceM Greg, even if Apple doesn't support the II's, the GS is so powerful and we have such good software, we can do it all better and faster. ELECTMUSIC Apple should address that issue, Joyce AFC Eddie Way to go, Joyce! AFL JoyceM Clue word there, Greg, is 'should'. ELECTMUSIC Agreed Joyce ELECTMUSIC Joyce... AFL JoyceM yes? ELECTMUSIC I have a quick quote I would like to present. AFL JoyceM Sure... ELECTMUSIC "The computer revolution in Education won't begin until we rethink what we want education to be" (P. Lehman from the Class of 2001) AFL JoyceM Great!!! ELECTMUSIC I would like to think that Hypermedia will allow the educator to control his destiny!!! AFC Eddie Great quote. Second grader? AFL JoyceM and the GS's destiny. True :) ELECTMUSIC P. Lehman is a Music Educator and the quote is from an address entitled Class of 2001. AFC Eddie oh AFL JoyceM :) AFC Eddie I like it! AFL JoyceM Then you feel that Hypermedia is the future for both computer education and music education? I agree :) ELECTMUSIC I think it is the natural progression... Nuzz I'd add MultiMedia in that equation AFL JoyceM Yes, Mike...forgot that one. AFC Eddie True. ELECTMUSIC (which is Hypermedia, right Mike?) Nuzz Not really Greg, but both go hand in hand and work in perfect harmony ELECTMUSIC I think of Multimedia as the 60 and 70's term for what we now know as Hypermedia AFL JoyceM Doesn't Hyper mean Active? ELECTMUSIC I think both areas attempt to connect Text, Graphics, and sound into some new media. AFL JoyceM Which means that we have a very active media :) Nuzz MultiMedia is the seemless integration of live video, audio, computer, and person. AFA Gene Isn't hypermedia just the "filecard" metaphor? Nuzz Hypermedia is the "base" as it were ELECTMUSIC Multimedia did it with projectors, voice speakers, and recorded sound. AFC Eddie Do I see some divergent definitions here? ELECTMUSIC Hpermedia uses a computer to integrate these same area in much a more powerful way. AFC Eddie I think you're all right. AFL JoyceM Greg, do you have any closing comments or thoughts? ELECTMUSIC If we scroll back to my quote... that was my closing comments AFL JoyceM And a good one. AFC Eddie Greg, thanks for all the insights! ELECTMUSIC do you want me to redo it :) AFL JoyceM You can if you want :) ELECTMUSIC "The computer revolution in Education won't begin until we...rethink what we want education to be" (P. Lehman from the Class of 2001). And I feel that Hypermedia will allow the teacher to control his destiny!!! AFL JoyceM True. AFL JoyceM Any other comments before we close this conference? AFL JoyceM Thank you, Greg :) ELECTMUSIC Thank You Joyce AFC Eddie Thanks! AFL JoyceM Okay, again, thank you Greg....most enlightening :) ELECTMUSIC Nite everyone, I got a 6th grade Band waiting to wake me up :) AFL JoyceM --------------------log off-----------------