=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- APPLE II MUSIC & SOUND FORUM CONFERENCE LOG February 06, 1991 10 PM ET Topic: MIDI - What, how - a help night Forum Leader: Joyce Madden (AFL JoyceM), Forum Assistant: Gene Koh (AFA Gene) Forum Consultants: Greg Dib (ELECTMUSIC), Ed Rosenblatt (AFC Eddie), Lindsay Hough (LindsayGS) Copyright (c) 1991 America Online All Rights Reserved =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- AFC Eddie Hi, Joyce! I'm ready to talk MIDI! AFL JoyceM So am I. I bought (or tried out) a Korg 707 yesterday....sure liked it but the price they were asking was most unreasonable for a used, old unit. Still on the search for a good but cheap MIDI keyboard! AFC Eddie Joyce, have you received something in the US mail from me? AFL JoyceM No AFC Eddie Hopefully, you'll get it tomorrow - my demo tape. AFL JoyceM Oh.....great :) Look forward to that AFC Eddie Looking forward to your feedback. AFL JoyceM I was thinking of another topic for our chats after last weeks discussion - one on bands and what equipment they use, etc.? AFC Eddie Good idea! It'd be great if we could get someone who works in a MIDI recording studio to come down and talk with us. AFL JoyceM That too....something to work on....probably set it up for April. Andy Stein What's the topic tonight? AFC Eddie MIDI, MIDI, and more MIDI Andy Stein Any special keywords tonight? :) AFL JoyceM Nope, not tonight, Andy....maybe next week :) Andy Stein Do you know if it's possible to get Background Sound CDA to play Diversi-Tune songs? AFC Eddie I don't think so, Andy. AFL JoyceM I don't think so. Andy Stein Oh. Well then maybe in a future version, since it recognizes the file types. AFL JoyceM Okay, let's get started. I only have one announcement....and that is to announce that we now have in our Software Library area, StudioWare - stacks for the Hypermedia programs. We are now 'connected' with the Graphic, Productivity and Education areas....and since both the Hyper programs can produce sound, it was suggested we have StudioWare in AMS. Thanks to AFL Marty, etc. The other statement I would like to make, is to remind everyone of our monthly contests we have - remember 5 FREE connect hours to the winner. ELECTMUSIC Very Nice assortment of stacks AFL JoyceM Now then, our topic tonight is MIDI - MIDI stands for Musical Instrument Digital Interface. Oh yes, the programs that support MIDI are: MusicStudio synthLAB Diversi-Tune MusicWriter MasterTracks these are the most popular music programs. AFC Eddie Also, the Audio Animator sequencing software. AFL JoyceM Thanks, Ed....I don't have that. So I presume Sonic Blaster does too? AFC Eddie No. It does not do sequencing. Only AA. The difference is that part of AA is a MIDI interface (internal). AFL JoyceM Interesting. AFL JoyceM I have been looking for a new MIDI keyboard these last couple of weeks and with the help of Greg (Electmusic) he is keeping me from making some great $$ mistakes :) ELECTMUSIC Joyce might I add that all Studioware stacks will support Sequencer songs AFL JoyceM Thanks, Greg...forgot that :) Andy Stein You mean Music Contruction Set doesn't support MIDI? AFC Eddie Andy, it supports MIDI out, but not in. You can play MCS Songs thru MIDI, but can't create them with MIDI. The other programs we've listed go both ways. Andy Stein I see. FredChopin Maybe Greg can help me :) ELECTMUSIC Mac HyperCard users EAT YOUR HEART OUT!!!!! AFL JoyceM The two MIDI interfaces we have are: Apple's and Passport, anymore? AFC Eddie AA's interface. MDW Flyer Yes Joyce. OpCodes Studio + 2 AFL JoyceM Flyer, do they still make it? MDW Flyer I think so. I bought it last year. AFC Eddie I believe it is still available, Joyce. MDW Flyer 3 outs + 3 ins, or 6 & 1. Modem or MIDI switching. All front panel access. AFL JoyceM Approximately what is the cost, Flyer? MDW Flyer $170 +/- AFC Eddie That's a good feature! ELECTMUSIC That is nice MDW ... AFL JoyceM It sure is....I just received my external Modem today...now I need a switch box! MDW Flyer It's primarily aimed at the studio setup. But I just use it at home. JRV What is the best MIDI devise for the GS AFC Eddie You mean instrument, JRV? There are so many! JRV Yeah . How about for a begginer AFL JoyceM JRV, do you mean a MIDI synthesizer/keyboard? MDW Flyer Opcode also makes a single in/out interface. Very, very similar to Apples. ELECTMUSIC JR... are you a keyboard player? JRV Yes keyboard. I have some experience AFC Eddie Casio makes some not too expensive devices, as does Yamaha. If you can afford it, get a keyboard that is Multi-timbral. That will allow you to play multi-track sequences. JRV I've seen a MIDI keyboard by casio for 99.99 but it is out of stock. MDW Flyer A Kawai K-1 or K-5 is a good buy also. AFC GaryG $99 for a MIDI? Must be really cheesy. AFC Eddie Roland D-5, too. JRV Where is the best place to buy a keyboard Cheap?? Store(type) mail order?? AFL JoyceM Denver's prices on MIDI keyboards are very, very high! MDW Flyer New York mailorder houses. AFC GaryG Mail order is really chancy with something like a keyboard. MDW Flyer Sam Ash for one is very reliable. ELECTMUSIC If ya don't mind mail order: Sam Ash JRV The $99 keyboard was a casio MT-something AFA Gene MT-240 probably MDW Flyer Are you just learning to play? AFL JoyceM JRV, do you presently have music software? If so, what programs? AFC GaryG We just got in the new Roland MW-30's today. FredChopin Are they nice Gary? JRV I can play an organ slowly I'd like to learn and use my computer. I have AE's Audio Animator. AFC GaryG It's a WD-30 & a D-70 in a rack unit. (or is that a W-30?) MDW Flyer How is AA's MIDI? AFL JoyceM Or WD-40? :) AFC Eddie So-so, from what I hear, MDW. MDW Flyer Spray it Joyce. AFL JoyceM JRV, that's the only software you have? MasterTracks is probably the best now FredChopin I don't like AA MIDI that much AFC GaryG Yes, the best for $500 though. AFC Eddie Have you had problems, Fred? FredChopin no MDW Flyer If you have a MIDI interface JRV, download the master tracks jr. demo. ELECTMUSIC Gene, do you know the price of the D5 or the Kawai K11 at Ash? AFC Eddie If you're serious about sequencing on the GS, Mastertracks is a must. FredChopin I am using it AFA Gene Greg: nope but I have their catalog... one sec JRV Do you have an address?? for Ash ELECTMUSIC Thanks Gene... that's what I was just looking for... but can't find in my messy computer room AFA Gene Kawai K11 $649..... Roland D5 $549. 1-800-4-SAM-ASH, 155 W 48th St NY, NY. :) MDW Flyer It's a shame the SynthLab doesn't have better editing. I haven't really used it enough to see its capability yet. AFC GaryG Really though, even though it cost a bazillion bucks, MT-Pro really is IT. GS Jim <---Wiggy FredChopin AA does'nt support Diversi-T am I correct? AFL JoyceM Jim, Welcome :) Good to see you :) AFC Eddie Fred, version 1.1 of DTune will support AA. AFL JoyceM Also, Fred...it (AA) doesn't support MusicStudio GS Jim It's nice to be back in AMS. :) ELECTMUSIC Fred... I believe the latest version of DTune supports AA GS Jim Courseling? MDW Flyer If its MIDI interface is out the Apple MIDI drivers with the system disk it should work with AA. ELECTMUSIC Joyce, those are both good reasonably priced keybboards. AFC GaryG What's his name that does DTune? (Mental block) AFC Eddie Bill Basham. MDW Flyer Getting to DTunes MIDI controls isn't exactly intuitive. Nuzz I know that guy AFC GaryG As soon as Bill quits that gas station job, he'll have time to finish the new version. ;) AFL JoyceM Thanks, Greg....I know that the dealers here are over pricing their stuff!! FredChopin Gary Do you have a synth. now? AFC JohnC My daughter has a Yamaha ParaSound...can this be used for MIDI? ELECTMUSIC Gene, how do ya feel about these two keyboards GS Jim Hey, if I can figure out how to get to the MIDI commands in DTune, anybody can. AFC Eddie Portasound does not support MIDI. AFC GaryG As soon as you sell me that Apple MIDI, Fred, I'm getting a Roland, I think. JRV Thanks for all your help. MDW Flyer But if your just starting out using MIDI its not readily apparent what it means AFL JoyceM Agree, Jim...it is tough to begin with, and I think the editing is difficult in DTune. AFC GaryG I thought there was one in the top of the PortaSound line that did have MIDI. ELECTMUSIC Jim, are you talking about the use of DTune or the programing of DTune? AFC Eddie Maybe, Gary. GS Jim I am talking about the use of DTune. AFA Gene Greg: I have not heard how the K1 II sounds, but it's description matches that of the D5. ELECTMUSIC You own the D5, right? MDW Flyer Anyone know details about DTune file formats? Are they published anywhere. AFC Eddie I think DTune has its own, MDW. AFL JoyceM Bill Basham doesn't always play by the rules :) Great sounding tho! FredChopin I need a program that transposes notes AFC Eddie What do you mean by transpose, Fred? AFA Gene Greg: Yep. Oh yeah, the K1II has a few simple digital effects; the D5 does not. AFC Eddie Dont know, MDW. MDW Flyer Transposes from what. Fred GS Jim One key to another? AFL JoyceM Doesn't MusicWriter transpose, Greg? FredChopin AA AFC Eddie Yes, so does Mastertracks. AFA Gene Greg: Oh AFC GaryG I dunno. Kawai, I send a lot of those back for repair. MDW Flyer That is simple addition I would think. Note for note, or randomly? AFL JoyceM I can't use MasterTracks with my present keyboard! The auto rhythms take over !!! MDW Flyer Master Tracks Jr. transposes. So do most keyboards. AFA Gene Greg: I'm looking at the catalog and it seems the K1 II has an 8-voice polyphonic while the D5 has 16-voice polyphonic - big differentiation between the two machines. AFL JoyceM The one dealer I was with today, stated they discontinued carrying the Kawai keboards due to problems! AFC Eddie Gene, how much multi-timbral on the D-5? ELECTMUSIC All sequencing programs transpose... including MStudio AFA Gene 16 voices, 8 channels. Kawai is 8 voices, 8 channels. AFC Eddie That is a big difference! MDW Flyer No problems with the Kawai K5 in two years use. But its complex to program. AFL JoyceM Gene, the Roland D5 is that a relatively new machine? Wonder if Ash would mail it to me here in Denver if I called? GS Jim Well, I've got to go.... I am paying LD charges where I live now just wanted to stop by and say hello to you all. AFL JoyceM Jim, thanks for stopping by...good to see you :) AFA Gene Nah, it's been around. A year and a half ago it used to cost almost double what it does now. I'm sure they'd be able to ship it if u want. AFC Eddie Joyce, if you get a D-5, you Gene and I can share Sysex stuff! AFC GaryG The D5 is 'old' as synths go. (Where 6 months is 'old) AFL JoyceM Greg....your thoughts on the D5? AFA Gene Actually, to tell the truth, I think the D-50 is a MUCH better deal than the D-5 at this point in time IMHO. AFL JoyceM I sure liked that Korg I played with last evening...but the price was awful! AFC Eddie But D-50 is not multi-timbral. AFC GaryG And more bang for the buck, too. ELECTMUSIC The D5 is based on Linear Synthesis which means the more voices allocated the less is available for sound design so the voices become thinner sounding... right? AFA Gene Gary: Oh yeah, twist the knobs and get a funky effect! LOL :) AFL JoyceM Linear, sounds logical. AFL JoyceM That Korg 707 is really all I needed :( ELECTMUSIC Isn't the D50 more expensive then the D5, though? AFC Eddie Don't know K 707. AFC GaryG 707? Oh man! AFC Eddie Yes, Greg, it is. FredChopin Is the 707 any good? AFL JoyceM Built in 1987 and sold for $899 AFC Eddie Nicer sounds on D-50, but no multi-timbral. ELECTMUSIC So, someone on a limited budget should seriously consider the D5? AFA Gene Greg: I've never run into a problem with voices thinning out, except when too many really "fat" sounds play at once. AFC Eddie Step up to D-20 and get onboard sequencer and disk drive. Then you can port between MIDI programs. AFC GaryG There you go! ELECTMUSIC Gary... I liked the 707, especially with a heavy discount :) AFL JoyceM I am gathering from this conversation that Roland is the 'in' keyboard today? AFL JoyceM D-20 sells for what? ELECTMUSIC I think you would really like the D5, Joyce and at the Sam Ash price of $549 AFC Eddie You can get one for about $1000 to $1100. AFC GaryG I want a D-70, R-8, and a truckload of cash to pay for it with. :) MDW Flyer Anyone notice that there is alot of MIDI porting from one format to another.? AFL JoyceM Thanks, Greg. I will check locally and then give Sam Ash a call. AFC Eddie I think I've noticed ;) ELECTMUSIC Or have a local guy MATCH a SAM ASH PRICE!!!!!! AFC GaryG After you get your Sam Ash price, email it to me and let me see if I can beat it. MDW Flyer Using external sequencers, what we need is a file conversion utility. AFL JoyceM BTW, I have an idea for a chat - talking about bands/groups and what keyboards and set ups they use. AFL JoyceM Okay, Gary, thanks. Remember, I live in Denver, CO! AFC GaryG I can tell you what brands I see on contract riders most of the time: Roland & Yamaha. ELECTMUSIC Sam Ashes Price is $549... Right Gene? Nuzz Denver CO. AFL JoyceM :)....gas tho, Mike AFC GaryG D-50's, 70's, and Yammie SY-77's. AFA Gene Yep, Greg, and I doubt that much haggling can be done with the mail order AFL JoyceM I have a Yamaha PSR-41 now....nice keyboard, but awful for MIDI input. AFC GaryG Joyce...Denver is not a prob, unless it's something that has to go truck. I can UPS-COD to anywhere. ELECTMUSIC Question about the D50... It is not multi timbral? AFC Eddie Nope. AFA Gene Nope, greg, but u can have two MIDI signals coming in at once, so it's pseudo-"bi"-timbral. ELECTMUSIC Isn't there a way of "configuring" the voices to recognize certain MIDI channels? AFC Eddie There is an adaptor available to make D-50 more multitimbral. AFL JoyceM What about the Technics keyboards? AFA Gene I would think the d-50 is more a performance-oriented unit, while the d-70 can be either good for the home or on the road. FredChopin Anyone played on the Bachmann synth? AFC Eddie No, but would like to hear about it, Fred. AFL JoyceM I just need a keyboard to input...nothing too fancy, but something that I can enjoy composing with with synthLAB, Mastertracks and the like. I have a full 3 -keyboard Wurlitzer organ that is professional for that type of use :) FredChopin I have never, but it looks nice AFC Eddie Joyce, you need multi-timbral, bad! AFA Gene Well, if you want a REAL keyboard and u plan to use it ONLY for MIDI input, you might wanna check out the casio digital pianos, which cost about the same as the d-5 but have 76 (88?) full-size, weighted keys. AFC Eddie I vote for D-5 for Joyce! AFC Eddie But less sounds and editing of sounds, right? FredChopin 88 weighted keys is a must for me AFL JoyceM I have, Gene and also the Yamaha's. But I want different sounds than just keyboard/piano! AFA Gene Yep. only piano sounds (and pretty bad ones at that). oh, in that case the d5 would be a solid, if not absolutely cutting-edge choice BillG50 Thanks gang you out did yourselves. it was darn informative. bye bye AFL JoyceM Thanks for stopping by Bill. AFA Gene And if you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask! :) ELECTMUSIC I vote for the D5 also AFC Eddie Then that settles it! AFA Gene But remember, the d5 will give you a taste of true pro synth quality, but when you get to the point where you NEED pro synth quality, you'll hit a brick wall. (personal experience talking) AFC Eddie Does D-5 have drum machine? ELECTMUSIC Use Ash's price and get someone to come close to matching it in Denver. AFL JoyceM I will, Greg...I think I am finally learning my lesson and bartering :) AFC Eddie Gene, you're right, but Joyce can't afford the pro stuff yet. ELECTMUSIC Hey Gene, when Joyce needs pro sound she can just use the GS :) AFC Eddie WTG, Greg! AFA Gene LOL :) actually, with synthLAB the IIGS is sometimes very much like the D5 in sound quality, except that there is MUCH more background noise on the GS, while there is NONE on the D5. AFL JoyceM I get very little noise on the GS FredChopin What do you all think about the Korgs? AFA Gene I've heard that on the ROM03 or a ROM01 w/ an AA or SB there is much less noise, but on my Supersonic GS there is a constant "ssssssssssssssssss" AFC Eddie The big $ korgs are good, others, so -so. ELECTMUSIC Fred, I am not happy about their user support AFL JoyceM Next week will be my week to work on looking and getting a new keyboard. Greg you stated that I shouldn't trade in my Yamaha...still think that way? FredChopin How about the T1? AFC Eddie Good luck, Joyce! AFA Gene Which yamaha was that again? AFL JoyceM PSR-41 ELECTMUSIC I never believe in trading in a MIDI keyboard... it always useful for something. Unless someone is going to give you big bucks for it! AFC Eddie I would usually agree with you, Greg, But if it's not multi-timbral, its usefulness may be outweighed by trade-in. AFA Gene True, especially when you consider how much you'll get for it (not much). AFL JoyceM Gene, I also have the MDIdeas SuperSonic stereo card - no noise! Unless my ears are failing in this old body ! AFA Gene Joyce, maybe you're just used to it; I was until I got the d5. AFL JoyceM My grand kids would enjoy it...has speakers built in. And they aren't into computers or MIDIing. ELECTMUSIC Fred... also Korg trys to be on the cutting Edge, at a cheap price. AFA Gene Keep it, joyce... the D5 would be a pain in the b*tt for young kids to have real fun with. FredChopin thanks AFL JoyceM I also want a keyboard that isn't too big or heavy. Is the D5 heavy? AFC Eddie Not at all, Joyce. AFA Gene kinda. it's 90% the size of most pro keyboards. AFL JoyceM Anyone know the weight? ELECTMUSIC Hey, If Gene can carry one to Applefest, you will have no problem :) AFA Gene But compared to the PSR's it's huge :) AFL JoyceM Huge...how huge is huge? ELECTMUSIC Its alittle wider then the 707 AFA Gene ==> swiveling chair, lifting d5.... AFA Gene 10 lbs? maybe 15 AFC Eddie My D-20 weighs 22 lbs., and D-5 weighs less. AFL JoyceM Oh, that's not bad....I can't carry much over 50lbs! AFA Gene Okay, here's ALL The stats on the D5: 61 velocity-sensitive keys; 32 voice Linear Synthesis sound source (16 was wrong b4); Dimensions: 38.5" x 11" ; Weight: 14 lb 8 oz ; Power draw 9V DC. :) AFL JoyceM Thanks guys...I think you all have helped tremendously :) Mr Toaster I want to get a MIDI interface. I saw in the classifieds an ad for Apple MIDI for $45. Should I go for it, or would you suggest another MIDI interface? AFL JoyceM I would, Toaster. AFC Eddie Go for it, Toast! Mr Toaster Is it an external box? ELECTMUSIC Yes Mr Toaster So it plugs into printer port or modem port? ELECTMUSIC Yep Mr Toaster Good, cuz I'm runnin out o' room in my box. ELECTMUSIC Thats all you should consider... Toaster AFL JoyceM Size not too bad...and your weight guestimation was great, Gene. AFA Gene All pro options are available but none are included. ;2 line 16-letter back-lit display. Mr Toaster Good. I didn't know if something like Audio Animator would be better. AFC Eddie No, Toast. ELECTMUSIC For MIDI... I wouldn't consider AA AFC Eddie Go with apple. Mr Toaster Oh, Eddie, how are you converting all these songs to synthLAB format? AFL JoyceM Memory? How much? AFL JoyceM Thanks, Greg for all your help :) AFL JoyceM Toaster....get the Apple MIDI interface - you will be safe. --------------- America Online - 1991