AFL HypCrd : Welcome to tonite's Hypercard conference....
AFL HypCrd : Tonite's guests are Jerry Daniels, Jeff Evans and 
             Mary Jane Mara from Daniels and Mara...
AFL HypCrd : And they are here to talk about HyperApp...
AFL HypCrd : which is a very unique application...
AFL HypCrd : Jerry, why don't you tell folks about HyperApp...
AFL HypCrd : Then we'll take questions...
AFL HypCrd : But first...
AFL HypCrd : I got a question...
AFL HypCrd : How many folks here program in a language other than 
             Hypertalk, such as C, Pascal, etc. on the Mac?
AFL HypCrd : Just jump in :)
DDRUCKER   : ?
MarkHanrek : me
KHarris    : C programming here!
DDRUCKER   : Does AppleScript count?
AFC FrankV : <- Me
BenSoft    : me too (C)
JReilly    : Me. C and Prograph
AFC Jeff   : Pascal and SQL
AFL HypCrd : Also, have you written an XCMD?
MarkHanrek : one or two. :)
AFC FrankV : <- Me
KHarris    : I am soon to be the XCMD MEISTER!
KHarris    : :)
AFL HypCrd : David...I believe that you can get AppleScript to 
             count :)
AFC Jeff   : a couple here and there... 
DDRUCKER   : OK Thanks. :)
AFL HypCrd : Jeff...I said one...not a hundred :)
DDRUCKER   : Jeff's going for a Rinaldi. (The prize for most 
             XCMD's)
KHarris    : Jeff and I will have to race on that one.
AFL HypCrd : David, great idea! 
AFC Jeff   : Oh, I thought that was a fancy French cuss word... ;)
AFL HypCrd : And the rest of you are Hypertalk only 
             programmers...like myself :)
AFL HypCrd : OK, Jerry, now that you know the audience, time for 
             your intro <Go Ahead> 
DANIELSMAR : For some of you who have already heard of HyperApp 
             some of this will be more of a status report.
AFA Don F  : <-- Pascal & C I'm learning SmallTalk & C++
DANIELSMAR : HyperApp is a development environment.
DANIELSMAR : One where you can build applications.
DANIELSMAR : It has a few elements in common with HyperCard.
DANIELSMAR : It has a few elements in common with several other 
             environs too.
DANIELSMAR : Like HyperCard, HyperApp lets you write your code 
             (scripts) in HyperTalk.
DANIELSMAR : Unlike HyperCard, these scripts are centrally 
             managed, more like SuperCard's SuperEdit.
DANIELSMAR : Unlike HyperCard these scripts are compiled BEFORE 
             runtime.
DANIELSMAR : Like HyperCard, HyperApp likes XCMDS. In fact all the 
             code you compile in the HyperApp development...
Bob Dell 1 : how do i script?
DANIELSMAR : environment become XCMDs (or XFCNs) in the target 
             application that you are creating.
DANIELSMAR : Good question, Bob.
DANIELSMAR : The HyperApp browser has a script editor and you just 
             type them and format them like you do in HC.
DANIELSMAR : When you have modified all your scripts (or created 
             them) you select Compile and they are compiled...
DANIELSMAR : into XCMDs. Into the target application. Our targets 
             are either HyperCard stacks or...
DANIELSMAR : regular, standalone applications.
AFL HypCrd : Jerry, why do all this? Do HyperApp applications run 
             faster than Hypercard?
AFL HypCrd : And how do they compare in size?
DANIELSMAR : GREAT question. Yes they do, but it's more than just 
             raw speed.
DANIELSMAR : You anticipated part of my answer...!
DANIELSMAR : Not only are XCMDs faster than scripts in HC, but 
             XCMDs in HyperApp are faster than XCMDs in HC.
KHarris    : What about size...how big would an average standalone 
             be?  
DANIELSMAR : If you are compiling your scripts into a HyperApp 
             base application target (rather than a stack), then
GaryTom    : ?
BenSoft    : ? 
DANIELSMAR : the resultant app is considerably smaller than a 
             stack or a standalone HyperCard stack.
DANIELSMAR : The base app is 50K. HC base app in its standalone 
             thingie is 500K+
DANIELSMAR : From the get-go things are smaller, but you can have 
             a lot of redundant code and bloat a HA-base app
DANIELSMAR : But if you are attentive about your coding practices 
             and architecture, this won't happen.
DANIELSMAR : There are some things about the environment I think 
             are significant. I'd like to talk about that .
DANIELSMAR : You can code in any language and be creating any type 
             of code resource and make real trouble for
DANIELSMAR : your self, your users and your clients. Most of you 
             probably know this already.
DANIELSMAR : In HyperApp you can avoid almost all of this trouble 
             by just using the product.
DANIELSMAR : HyperTalk source code is no guarantee that you will 
             have clear sailing toward application production.
DANIELSMAR : You can lose track of code.
DANIELSMAR : You can find it hard to organize other people's code 
             in a team effort.
AFC Jeff   : !
DANIELSMAR : HyperApp automates all the most painful aspects of 
             coding in any environment.
AFC Jeff   : For every person you add to the development team, 
             double the time it will take to develop something.
DANIELSMAR : You can set a preference that will automatically ask 
             you for the reason you have just modified a scrip
DANIELSMAR : These comments that HA asks you for become nicely 
             formatted and organized Change Histories.
DANIELSMAR : If you compile something and then it doesn't work 
             three days later cause you didn't test it properly..
DANIELSMAR : you can look at that external's change history and 
             see why. It shows you what PARTS were changed...
DANIELSMAR : and why.
AFL HypCrd : Q=Gary, Ben
DANIELSMAR : Also due to the very nature of a HA-based app, the 
             code resources are standalone and can be created...
DANIELSMAR : and debugged in team efforts with ease. 
DANIELSMAR : There are several other features of the environment 
             and the base app that are significant. I'll let...
DANIELSMAR : that come out in the questions.
AFL HypCrd : Gary<Go Ahead>
GaryTom    : What parts of the application are provided pre built? 
              Is there some sort of HyperCard like shell...
GaryTom    : ....with cards and stuff or does everything have to 
             be built from scratch.  Do you have to...
GaryTom    : ...be a toolbox programmer as well or can you do 
             everyting with a HyperTalk like syntax?...
GaryTom    : ....How does your product differ from the... 
GaryTom    : ...Double-XX, CompileIt!, WindowScript combination? 
             <DONE>
DANIELSMAR : You have anticipated my next prepared comments, to 
             the "T"!
DANIELSMAR : We had a decision to make about many aspects of app 
             development.
DANIELSMAR : One was HyperCard support.
DANIELSMAR : When we started to create HA it was two years ago 
             almost to the week.
DANIELSMAR : We have been using it in-house for over 1.5 years and 
             generated LARGE billings for custom development.
DANIELSMAR : At the time we started and began to use HA, HyperCard 
             was all but dead.
DANIELSMAR : It was almost an orphaned.
DANIELSMAR : (make that orphan)
DANIELSMAR : I felt the cold wind of poverty right around the 
             corner for all of us.
DANIELSMAR : We more or less decided then that we'd better learn 
             something besides HyperCard-dependant HyperTalk.
DANIELSMAR : We all decided to use the stuff most programmers 
             already knew and the stuff that could keep us in ...
DANIELSMAR : business!
DANIELSMAR : We decided to learn the parts of the toolbox we 
             needed.
DANIELSMAR : There are over 300 cmds, fcns, properties and system 
             msgs in HyperCard.
DANIELSMAR : I had to learn less Toolbox than that to write XCMDs 
             in HyperApp.
DANIELSMAR : So I had a learning curve to get into the world of 
             XCMDs, but I'm at home in most of the Mac dev...
DANIELSMAR : environments now. We have a future no matter what 
             happens at Apple with HC.
LoomisChaf : Any thoughts on the new Hyperstudio for the Mac?
DANIELSMAR : HyperApp base app is an MPW-generated shell that 
             support all the binary callbacks (that are...
DANIELSMAR : appropriate) that HC offers.
DANIELSMAR : You don't mess with the base app as that is just 
             created once when you create a new target in HA.
DANIELSMAR : You set its properties from HA dev environment.
DANIELSMAR : Did that answer your Q?
GaryTom    : Gee thanks--that sure answered each of my questions 
             to the "T"
DANIELSMAR : Give that man a T shirt.
GaryTom    : NOT
AFL HypCrd : Bensoft<Go Ahead>
DANIELSMAR : Other Q's? 
BenSoft    : A few ?s. How much does it cost? How do you make  
             buttons/fields,& how does it deal with menus?...
BenSoft    : Can you use HC menu functions, or actually install a 
             menu resource in ResEdit?
BenSoft    : <done>
DANIELSMAR : Good questions all.
DANIELSMAR : We have only sold HyperApp to our custom development 
             clients so far, but that will be changing...
DANIELSMAR : next month.
DANIELSMAR : The clients paid us big bucks to develop for them so 
             they didn't pay retail for it. It was part of...
DANIELSMAR : our contracts with them.
DANIELSMAR : We set the price of the package at $300.
DANIELSMAR : It is subject to change, but we've been pretty steady 
             about this.
AFC Jeff   : ? 
DANIELSMAR : There are some aspects of this that we can go into 
             later...including compilers, etc.
DANIELSMAR : On to the tech aspects of your q...
DANIELSMAR : Make btns, flds, lists, scrolling text, picts, icons 
             in the resource editor of your choice.
Poorfessor : $300.00!!!!!!Bye
DANIELSMAR : We like Resorcerer as an editor, but ResEdit is free 
             and works great too.
DANIELSMAR : Menus are made in the resource editor too.
DDRUCKER   : (I guess Poorfessor really is poor...)
DANIELSMAR : You use tool box calls to manipulate them or use the 
             XCMDs we GIVE you with HyperApp...
DANIELSMAR : and our XCMDs come with full HyperTalk source code.
DANIELSMAR : Because of the beautiful technology that Tom Pittman 
             and the folks at Heizer have created...
DANIELSMAR : HyperApp dev env can use the engine of CompileIt! to 
             do its compiling and much of its debugging.
DANIELSMAR : I can't say enough good things about CompileIt! we 
             have used it for a long time. Because of its...
DANIELSMAR : debugger, it is the BEST compiler.
DANIELSMAR : For XCMDs, that is.
B Molyneau : Thanks Jerry, for the kind words! :)
AFL HypCrd : Q=KHarris, Jeff
KHarris    : When do you expect this to ship...next month?
BenSoft    : Wait, so are all the buttons/fields created and 
             placed on windows with DITL resources?
DANIELSMAR : We have been using it for 1.5 years, but it has taken 
             awhile to get together the docs and make it...
DANIELSMAR : tech-supportable. 
KHarris    : A time frame...a time frame.
DANIELSMAR : BenSoft...yes.
DANIELSMAR : Yes, we hope to ship before the end of the year.
BenSoft    : What about system 7 savvy?  Drag and drop etc..
KHarris    : Thank you!  <done>
BenSoft    : <done>
DANIELSMAR : Tech support on AOL, too!
AFL HypCrd : OK, who else has a question for Daniels & Mara on 
             HyperApp?
DANIELSMAR : Yes, HyperApp-built apps are System 7 saavy. We 
             dragonDrop in our apps.
AFC Jeff   : What about distribution, any royalty fees, or is that 
             included in the initial purchase price?
AFL HypCrd : Yes, we hope to set up a HyperApp sig in the near 
             future.
DANIELSMAR : NO ROYALTIES. NO LICENSING FEES.
KHarris    : SWEET!
DANIELSMAR : Create. Enjoy.
DANIELSMAR : Make money.
Neka       : gotta like that :)
AFA Don F  : Do like that a whole bunch!!@!
DANIELSMAR : I want to emphasize that we are an active development 
             firm who uses this to make its bread and butter.
CATkeeper  : ? 
DANIELSMAR : Home made bread in one of thost automatic bread 
             makers!
DDRUCKER   : Got one. Love it.
DANIELSMAR : Cat-man
DANIELSMAR : it's yours
AFL HypCrd : Cat<Go Ahead>
CATkeeper  : Are scripts in HA subject to the TextEdit 32k size 
             limit?
DANIELSMAR : Good question about script limits.
KHarris    : ( very good question )
DANIELSMAR : You have 64K for script editing in HA dev env.
DDRUCKER   : Bravo.
DANIELSMAR : The largest script I have been able to compile is 
             55K.
CATkeeper  : Clap clap
KHarris    : Nice.
DANIELSMAR : Be warned, tho: beyond a certain limit of object size 
             you can't use the debugger.
AFC Jeff   : <joke> What's the largest script you haven't been 
             able to compile?
DANIELSMAR : We are using CompileIt! 2.1 in all our tests.
DANIELSMAR : The script that go away.
B Molyneau : Why not 2.5.1?
DANIELSMAR : "got" away
CATkeeper  : Are windows managed more like HC or like SuperCard?
DANIELSMAR : Brian: healthy fear--Apple has trained us well.
DANIELSMAR : We are EXTREMELY conservative developers. 
DANIELSMAR : Our clients are large corp. entities. Big lawyers. 
             Fear. Loathing. You know the drill.
DANIELSMAR : Windows like SuperCard.
DANIELSMAR : They are true objects like Window-XCMDS in HyperCard.
DANIELSMAR : Most developers don't know how great external windows 
             are.
DDRUCKER   : ?
AFL HypCrd : David<Go Ahead>
DANIELSMAR : You can make your HA-generated apps very object 
             oriented with them.
DDRUCKER   : How would you describe the learning curve? Steep at 
             first but better later, or steady all the way?
DANIELSMAR : Learning curve: moderate, but depends upon several 
             factors. Income curve: sharp upward.
KHarris    : ?
DDRUCKER   : <grin>
AFL HypCrd : Kevin<Go Ahead>
KHarris    : Why are you using an almost 2 year old version of 
             CompileIt! ?
DANIELSMAR : We are not assuming a HyperTalk-only, HyperCard-only 
             future. HyperApp prepares you for that.
DANIELSMAR : CompileIt! 2.1 works great and we want everything to 
             work in that environment.
KHarris    : Can you be more specific as to why you are avoiding 
             version 2.5.1?
DANIELSMAR : We don't need anything in 2.5.1. So we haven't 
             bothered to update. We like 2.5.1 tho. Nothing 
             wrong...
KHarris    : I know for a fact that there are bugs in 2.1 that 
             were addressed in later revs.
DANIELSMAR : with it that we know of. Our projects last 1 to 2 
             years, so we stay with what works.
DANIELSMAR : They have not been bugs for us.
DANIELSMAR : We are using CompileIt engine in our own environment.
KHarris    : Undocumented features then?
KHarris    : <done>
DANIELSMAR : Other questions?
AFL HypCrd : I always seem to be dancing that fine line 
             between....
AFL HypCrd : known bugs in older versions vs. unknown bugs in 
             latest :)
AFL HypCrd : Any other questions about HyperApp?
AFL HypCrd : Jerry, thanks for coming and talking about HyperApp!
DANIELSMAR : I think HyperApp's a great opportunity to build upon 
             HC skills without having to learn C.
DANIELSMAR : Any one wanting more info, send me your name and phys 
             address. 
AFL HypCrd : ...and dealing with all the overhead in Hypercard.
DANIELSMAR : Thanks for coming and listening.
AFL HypCrd : Jerry, Demo stacks?
DANIELSMAR : There is more overhead than you think in good old HC!
DANIELSMAR : Name and address and you'll get goodies.
DANIELSMAR : Including CyberTxt Reader.
DANIELSMAR : It's what our docs are in.
AFL HypCrd : Have you thought about uploading a demo App. here? 
             One that's been constructed using HyperApp.
DANIELSMAR : You'll get our goodies just before it ships.
DANIELSMAR : Yes, we'll upload promo material on the eve of 
             release.
DANIELSMAR : We're looking forward to making AOL our home for tech 
             support and product info.
AFL HypCrd : It would be interesting to see a compute bound 
             Stack...
AFL HypCrd : converted into a HyperApp, to see how fast it gets.
DANIELSMAR : huh?
DANIELSMAR : If you architect your app and stack similarly, the 
             conversion shouldn't be too time consuming.
DANIELSMAR : The end product really screams, though.
AFL HypCrd : Find a stack that imports and parses some text. Then 
             'convert' it to a HyperApp...
DANIELSMAR : This is not a stack converter, tho.
AFL HypCrd : and see how fast it imports/parses a large text file.
DANIELSMAR : I see where you're going.
DANIELSMAR : Yes. Text parsing in XCMD can be 20 to 50 times 
             faster.
AFL HypCrd : You could then show all the resources you had to 
             create to make the stack-equivalent HyperApp.
DANIELSMAR : Good idea.
DANIELSMAR : Great idea in fact.
AFL HypCrd : I think I understand what HyperApp requires...
DANIELSMAR : We re did a script that translates SABRE airline 
             codes to itineraries...
DANIELSMAR : english itineraries.
AFL HypCrd : but I'm not sure what the end result would require...
DANIELSMAR : The stack took 15 seconds.
DANIELSMAR : The HyperApp version took less than a second.
AFL HypCrd : I'd need to create some resourcs like a window, some 
             buttons, maybe a menu, etc...
DANIELSMAR : We do front-ending of large mainframe systems. So 
             parsing we know.
DANIELSMAR : You'd be surprized how easy it is to build a window 
             in ResEdit.
DANIELSMAR : We have all the sample code you need in the package.
AFL HypCrd : Do you understand my second point...about seeing the 
             resources in the HyperApp version?
DANIELSMAR : Explain.
AFL HypCrd : The resulting HyperApp would contain a bunch of 
             resources (windows, XCMDs, etc.)...
DANIELSMAR : yes
AFL HypCrd : Break these out into a picture (i.e. so I don't have 
             to run the HyperApp thru Resedit)...
AFL HypCrd : with an explanation for each resource and it's 
             purpose. 
DANIELSMAR : Are you asking how you show a window in HyperApp?
DANIELSMAR : Or how it works?
GaryTom    : ?
AFL HypCrd : Then I'd understand all the pieces that are needed to 
             create a HyperApp. 
AFL HypCrd : See, I understand what's required to make a stack...
DANIELSMAR : If I understand...we do this in our docs. Step by 
             step.
AFL HypCrd : I need a 'picture' to see what's required for a 
             HyperApp.
DANIELSMAR : Oh.
AFL HypCrd : Oh, OK, that sounds like something worth posting 
             online :)
AFL HypCrd : Gary<Go Ahead>
GaryTom    : It seems to me that its a Double-XX clone without the 
             interpretor for twice the $--Is that right?
DANIELSMAR : Pictures and diagrams (with circles and arrows on the 
             back of each) in the docs.
CATkeeper  : Yes, but the docs cost $300. What about a demo 
Neka       : nite all, thanks for the chat :)
DANIELSMAR : GaryTom--no.
DANIELSMAR : Posting a short version of the docs online is a good 
             idea. 
GaryTom    : Well, how's it different or better? 
AFL HypCrd : In one sense, the are both development systems...but 
             that may be like comparing MPW to Think C.
DANIELSMAR : When we're ready to release we'll take you up on the 
             online docs idea.
KHarris    : How about just making a demo version with demo docs. 
DANIELSMAR : I have never used Double-XX. Let the reviewer review. 
             The critics criticise.
GaryTom    : I'm not sure what that means.  But I know I'd like 
             more info on HyperApp.
DANIELSMAR : Cool. You'll be able to buy it.
DANIELSMAR : We'll be posting more info on too, so you can make an 
             informed decision.
AFL HypCrd : Jerry, Thanks again!
GaryTom    : I find you answer that its not like Double-XX 
             interesting since you've never used Double-XX.
DANIELSMAR : You're welcome.
AFL HypCrd : It seems that Hypercard has spawned an industry.
AFL HypCrd : Next Week: Hear about the Early Learning Series: ...
AFL HypCrd : Stacks for alphabet & number learning, association, 
             and visual skills