AFL HypCrd : Hi Folks, Welcome to this week's Hypercard Conference... AFL HypCrd : We don't have a guest tonite... LarryD67 : ? has anyone experienced Compileit 2.5.1 Oesterle : :< AFL HypCrd : My fault... It turns out that the fellow I arranged the conference with... AFL HypCrd : doesn't work for the company anymore... AFL HypCrd : And no one else could arrange to get online tonite. MARKEtheD : Signing off guys - keep in touch. Love Kerry, Jennifer and Sean! AFL HypCrd : So, I figured we'd have an 'open' conference tonite... AFL HypCrd : We'll start by talking about Hypercard and Communication... AFL HypCrd : since our guest was going to talk about client/server stuff... AFL HypCrd : If we run out of communication related topics... AFL HypCrd : we'll open it up to anything Hypercard... LindaP14 : ? AFL HypCrd : But to get things started...does anybody have a communication related question? Oesterle : ? AFL HypCrd : Linda Ninja Cow : I just got some hypercard modem XCMDs, but they don't work! help me LindaP14 : How would you go about designing an HC... LindaP14 : front end for another program... LindaP14 : what are the basic considerations? AFL HypCrd : Q=Linda,Oesterle,Ninja LindaP14 : AFL HypCrd : I'll take a crack at answering that... AFL HypCrd : and than let other folks comment... Oesterle : ! AFL HypCrd : Essentially, a front end involves passing data and then getting a response... AFL HypCrd : so I'd start by considering what data is possible. Oesterle : ! AFL HypCrd : Oesterle Oesterle : What problem are you trying to solve with a front end? Is this program on a mainframe? BEEF IV : It did, but TOS doesn't like it ;) AFL HypCrd : Linda, are you working with a mainframe? LindaP14 : I'm looking for general guidelines guys. Probably it will be filemaker Pro LindaP14 : No on a network. Oesterle : Is there any reason not to do the frontend in FileMaker Pro? LindaP14 : With a dedicated fileserver. I am considering it for no tampering purposes. AFL HypCrd : One reason to use Hypercard would be to filter incoming data... AFL HypCrd : For example, you could use Hypercard to parse the incoming data... AFL HypCrd : and if the right 'phrase' appeared... AFL HypCrd : you could display a different window to the user... The VAXer : Huh??? AFL HypCrd : BTW - AOL is a front-end.... AFL HypCrd : it passes 'tokens' to the Mac... Oesterle : I don't see HC giving you any more security than FM. AFL HypCrd : which then puts up the appropriate window (or fills the window in with data). Oesterle : Any other problems you want to solve with the front end? LindaP14 : Thanks! Oesterle : ? AFL HypCrd : While HC won't protect someone who wants... AFL HypCrd : to break the system... AFL HypCrd : It could be used to stop people from inadvertently doing "improper" things... AFL HypCrd : by parsing the outgoing data so that only 'legal' things could be sent to the server... AFL HypCrd : this might be hard to do with Filemaker. LindaP14 : exactly my thoughts AFL HypCrd AFL HypCrd : Oesterle Oesterle : I want to write a HC front-end to AOL, so I can automate certain online tasks. Anyone done this? BEEF IV : Unless you use FileMaker and something like Frontier or AppleScript. AFL HypCrd : Oesterle...there are no published hooks into AOL... Oesterle : I've front-ended other online systems. Has anyone posted the protocols and tokens? Seems a little... AFL HypCrd : and alot of things aren't "fixed".... Oesterle : ... terminal based R&D could discover this. AFL HypCrd : For example, My understanding is that you can't just go to any area...you have to traverse the tree... AFL HypCrd : i.e. the only way to get to a message board is to go to the forum first. Oesterle : I've had to deal with similar schemes on other systems. AFA Don F : On the Windows side somebody has created a message front end that lets you fetch messages and answer AFL HypCrd : Hmmm...to be honest AOL frowns on this...they aren't equipped support it. AFC Jeff : The tough part is hacking the protocol to do stuff like this. AFA Don F : offline and then post your replies. Slick but I don't know of a similar tool for the Mac side yet. AFL HypCrd : There has been some work done on working with email. BEEF IV : Since AOL doesn't make their API available to independent developers, I doubt you'll ever see such ... BEEF IV : a tool, unless AOL does it itself. Oesterle : Rats. I want to download NewsBytes and check other boards automatically. AFL HypCrd : OK, here's something to think about... AFC Jeff : Oesterle, best thing to do is organize a letter writing campaign... AFC Jeff : and stuff AOLs suggestion box with Demands for an offline reader! AFL HypCrd : Protection on a system like this is very important... AFL HypCrd : I'm no expert in this... BEEF IV : Or you could hack it, with some sort of serial port monitor, this mainframe type API is fairly simple. Oesterle : Oh, well, thanks, but I think I could write one before I developed the political skills. AFL HypCrd : but one way to protect the system is to make everything temporary... AFL HypCrd : for example, there are no fixed addresses to message boards... AFL HypCrd : just a path to the message board... AFA Don F : I think the Windows tool just runs AOL for Windows automatically rather than having any access to the AFA Don F : AOL API but they could have access to the WINDOWS API which would let them get pretty slick AFC Jeff : A clever person could rig some QuickKeys to do a similar thing for Mac AOL. BEEF IV : AOL could easily solve the 'problem' by making the next version of the AOL software scriptable. Oesterle : A nice solution would be for AOL to become scriptable. AFA Don F : Anybody here ever play with Calypso? Oesterle : Oops. AFA Don F : Calypso is a CTB tool that lets you write CCL scripts to do some fun things. AFL HypCrd : Send in your requests to AOL...most of the features that get implemented are based on user demands... AFC Jeff : What incentive does AOL have to provide a means of saving money to its subscribers? AFA Don F : Folks have used it to script sessions on packet networks to reach FirstClass BBSs and then it hands AFA Don F : off to the FC GUI frontend software BEEF IV : Intersting... Don... what kind of tool? Connection? Transfer? AFL HypCrd : Those features that are requested most are the most likely to get implemented sooner than later. GameBug : Hello all AFL HypCrd : Jeff, they have all the incentive to make the system easy to use.... BEEF IV : None, Jeff, that why they'll get ride of all the sysop in favor of in-house sysops wannabe ;) AFA Don F : CCL scripts Beef, with the CTB folks have created protocol transfers, terminal emulations, etc. Oesterle : This would not necessarily save money. It might cost users more, by increasing their use of the system AFL HypCrd : AOL is interested in growing this system to a few million people... SGANDY : ! AFA Don F : Unfortunately for them the Stratus architecture is pushed severely by current subscripber activities h AFL HypCrd : not trying to soak a few thousand for an extra hour every month :) AFL HypCrd : Sgandy SGANDY : I thought this was a HyperCard forum. AFL HypCrd : Yes, it is :)...but we're rambling on front -end communications... AFL HypCrd : And since many people use Hypercard to build front-ends... AFL HypCrd : it's important that people understand how existing system work. SGANDY : okay, I just needed to have a piece of ground to stand on. AFL HypCrd : AFL HypCrd : SGandy...did you have a Hypercard question? SGANDY : no I just dropped in. I usually have to read the transcripts AFL HypCrd : I've been told that the latest Broderbund game... AFL HypCrd : is done using Hypercard... AFL HypCrd : It's called Myst...and I think it's CD-ROM based. NOSLOM : HI EVERYBODY BEEF IV : I just got the FedEx tracking software, and it looks like it was done in SuperCard. AFL HypCrd : The person who told me this... AFL HypCrd : said that since they knew it was a stack... AFL HypCrd : that they hacked into it... AFL HypCrd : when they got stumped :) AFL HypCrd : Beef...any chance it was done with Plus/OracleCard? Oesterle : ! AFL HypCrd : oester BEEF IV : Peter, I haven't opened it up in ResEd, but it is possible. Looks like a port at any rates. Oesterle : Myst is in HC. I have it. Highly recommended if you have 40 hours to waste. : ) Oesterle : Thoroughly enjoyed it. AFL HypCrd : Beef, the reason I wonder is that I would expect an Mainframe like database behind the system... AFL HypCrd : and Oracle would be a possibility..and since they have OracleCard.... BEEF IV : UNIX system, called COSMOS, I believe. AFL HypCrd : which, FYI, is essentially a repackaged copy of Plus (a Hypercard clone).... BEEF IV : At least it's not a bad part, very simple, no bells and whistles, works for me! ;) AFL HypCrd : and speaking of Clones (ooohhh...great segue to my next tidbit)... BEEF IV : part = port. AFL HypCrd : Windowcraft seems to be having some major problems... AFL HypCrd : A friend called them about porting a Mac stack... AFL HypCrd : started by asking them what Hypercard features they would NOT support... AFL HypCrd : they referred my friend to a consulting company... AFL HypCrd : who was told that for $85/hr. we'll answer that question... BEEF IV : Anybody played with 2.2b(x)? BEEF IV : Except you, Jeff ;) AFA Don F : If we had we'd be under non disclosure so we couldn't tell ya... Goal2 : I agree with Don :) AFL HypCrd : ...there's more to that story...but it appears that Windowcraft is a small venture capital backed... SGANDY : ? BEEF IV : Don, I see you haven't ;) AFL HypCrd : company, that may be running out of time... AFA Don F : but I have mailed a few pieces of paper back and forth lately AFL HypCrd : and that's too bad, as far as I'm concerned... AFA Don F : ahem AFC Jeff : Pith helmet on! AFL HypCrd : because the ability to convert stacks to the PC is makes Hypercard a stronger product. AFL HypCrd : SGandy SGANDY : 2.2b(x) is the new version of HC? When will it arrive? BEEF IV : Soon, SG, soon. BEEF IV : You can expect an official version by January, SF's Macworld. AFL HypCrd : I believe that one of the parts of the non-disclosure is that you can't even state... AFL HypCrd : that you are under non-disclosure :) SGANDY : What's the best addition or enhancement? AFL HypCrd : Anybody willing to guess on an announcement date? Oesterle : Another part is that you can't discuss parts of the non-disclosure. : ) AFL HypCrd : Hmmmmm....maybe I should have a raffle, closest to date wins :) AFC Jeff : I'll be lucky if my children's children see a color HyperCard. BEEF IV : Support for OSA, SG. Oesterle : Standard buttons AFC Jeff : OSA support means scripting with HyperTalk, AppleScript, Frontier... BEEF IV : OSA= Open Scripting Architecture. BEEF IV : Frontier is not OSA compliant, yet. QuicKeys is tho. SGANDY : Now you guys know my questions before I ask? AFC Jeff : Okay... but Userland is working on Frontier, correct? AFL HypCrd : The main focus of the next HC is Applescript... BEEF IV : Frontier 2.1 will be, but *I* can't talk about it ;) BEEF IV : Peter, the main focus is OSA which includes AppleScript. AFL HypCrd : But probably the most important part of the next release... AFL HypCrd : is that Hypercard is returning to Apple... BEEF IV : Which means that I may be free once again ;) AFC Jeff : Where it will experience a 96% drop in earnings. BEEF IV : I = it. AFL HypCrd : that opens up all sorts of speculation...Apple and Claris have different charters. AFA Don F : Yeah but then it can take its place as THE scripting front end of all time heh BEEF IV : Well, it means people at apple will use it for help and documentation, in other word, it will get a bo BEEF IV : ost. Oesterle : (Or a 96% drop in losses?) AFC Jeff : Or Why 1994 won't be like 1984... AFA Don F : OSA is a very obvious focus which means all us dedicated HyperTalkers may have a nice head start on .. AFA Don F : the rest of Macdom Oesterle : At least there is a new version. This shows some commitment. When did 2.1 come out? 1991? BEEF IV : What HyperCard need is a complete rewrite, start praying brother! ;) AFA Don F : More importantly with HC coming back to Apple we may finally see the death of the Player (YAY!) AFL HypCrd : Beef...interesting point... Oesterle : The player is cool. Oesterle : Why are people so mean to the Player? AFA Don F : The Player is a support nightmare AFA Don F : It is buggy AFC Jeff : The players serves a purpose, but that should be separate from the package. BEEF IV : Fortunately, some people at Apple agree with me ;) AFL HypCrd : A rewrite may make sense because of the PowerPC. AFL HypCrd : My guess is that very little of the current HC uses standard Mac calls... Oesterle : (thank you bill) AFL HypCrd : which means that the PowerPC would only be able to run in 68K emulation mode... BEEF IV : HyperCard doesn't run on PowerPC, period. Mainly because of the way it handles graphics. AFL HypCrd : which ain't anywhere as fast as native mode. AFA Don F : Peter, once the Mac OS runs in native mode HC would run on the PowerPC BEEF IV : Wrong, Don. Refer to the SJ DevCon, Apple specifically said that their was no hope for HC to run PPC AFA Don F : PowerOpen will supposedly do a good job of separating Apllication and hardware layers BEEF IV : in its current state. Oesterle : Beef, perhaps not today, but maybe by release AFA Don F : Right in its current state they aren't running in native mode the OS is being run inside an emulator Oesterle : Think of all the stuff Apple releases in HC format. Big problem. AFL HypCrd : Either way, a rewrite would run much faster.... AFL HypCrd : why you might even be able to add color... AFC Jeff : My hunch is that they are already working on the rewrite, but just trying to get this little update AFA Don F : But they are going to have to get the Mac OS into native mode on the PPC real fast if they want to..l AFL HypCrd : without it running horribly slow. AFA Don F : gain anything from the platform switch AFC Jeff : out the door to appease the masses. BEEF IV : The problem is making it backward compatible. Might not be as easy as it seems. AFC Jeff : We've been through that one-way door before. AFC Jeff : Remember 1.x -> 2.x AFA Don F : True BEEF IV : Yeap. AFL HypCrd : I was talking with a software developer about that... AFA Don F : But a new HC (forget backwards compatability) would be a good thing, eh? BEEF IV : You betcha! AFL HypCrd : and they speculated that maybe they want it to run slowly or not be backwards compatible... AFL HypCrd : this would encourage PowerPC sales, wouldn't it? :) AFL HypCrd : (i.e. run slowly on 68K Macs). AFA Don F : Backwards compatibility is biting MS hard these days - Chicago has a major delay ouch AFA Don F : Peter I think the fact that the PPC will run 3 flavors of UNIX (Solaris, AIX and SCO)... BEEF IV : Well from what I've seen at DevCon, they are on the right path. No NDA will stop me from saying what's BEEF IV : public knowledge ;) AFA Don F : and all the PowerStation (RS6000) apps will run right now in native mode... Oesterle : PowerOpen. AFA Don F : not to mention Windows NT (heh).... BEEF IV : Or NetWare and OS/2 AFL HypCrd : About the switch of HC back to Apple... AFA Don F : I think all of those factors will make the PowerPC successfull I'm afraid that Apple isn't going to be Oesterle : Gee, I just can't wait to buy RAM for Windows NT! AFA Don F : the major driving force behind this architecture (though I'd love them to be the driver, they aren't ) AFL HypCrd : I'm speculating, but I don't think Apple will change the Player/Development kit system that AFA Don F : Hey folks notice the average RAM requirements for the Mac 8 megs is coming "standard" these days AFL HypCrd : Claris put in place. BEEF IV : Well folks I gotta run. Jeff you take of yourself, and don't let Peter get outta hand ;) AFA Don F : UNIX has always like RAM (thats because real-time multi-tasking OSs need some realestate heh AFL HypCrd : Apple's major weakness is that they don't have a customer support group... AFC Jeff : Bye Bye Beef! Oesterle : Ouch! AFL HypCrd : so I doubt they want to support the programmable version of HC. AFL HypCrd : Bye Beef... AFA Don F : I thought they had bought land in Austin Texas for a support facility? AFL HypCrd : Thanks for coming tonite! AFC Jeff : They've hired folks in Austin for SOS-APPL already. AFL HypCrd : Don...last I looked, sagebrush can't provide application support yet :) AFC Jeff : So they're gearing up. AFL HypCrd : My thinking is that they split off the developer support area... AFC Jeff : Any comments about Sculley stepping down today? AFA Don F : Yeah and they are going to sell Windows software on CD as well as Mac apps whats the world coming too? AFC FrankV : Yeah, lets get those Pepsi machines out of there and start some real work again. :) AFL HypCrd : the customer support folks will have trouble supporting Hypercard developers. Oesterle : HyperCard is a development tool. AFC Jeff : Hey, it's HyperCard, how tough can it be?!? AFC Jeff : :) AFA Don F : I don't beileve anybody has EVER supported HC developers except themselves :) AFC FrankV : Well my parents supported one for a while. :) AFA Don F : MIne too Oesterle : I hope the development tools support organization supports it. AFL HypCrd : Claris tried...I know some of the folks and they know their stuff. MartinS22 : Still are, Frank! AFC Jeff : Let's see, MPW is going to Symantec where it will be integrated with the THINK products... AFC Jeff : that leaves a few engineers free. AFA Don F : I read an editorial that said... AFA Don F : Apple is unitasking... Oesterle : Is this true, Jeff? SKI K2 : Hi guys AFA Don F : It can do one thing incredibly well... AFC Jeff : Its true according to my sources. AFA Don F : but onkly one thing at a time... AFA Don F : so freed up assetts aren't necessarily going to help... AFA Don F : unless Apple gets its act together in terms of strategic planning and resource allocation Oesterle : Sculley led the company from $600 million to $8 billion. AFC Jeff : I have nothing but respect for John Sculley, I'm just wondering what the future holds. Oesterle : Change is certain. AFA Don F : Lets see we have a bazillion models of Macs, the Newton/PIE endeavor, Software Dispatch, HC,... AFA Don F : and ????? Oesterle : (More so at Apple.) AFC Jeff : First John Sculley, next thing you know Joel AFC Jeff : Robinson will leave MST3K. AFA Don F : Anybody joined the Mac-of-the-Month club yet AFC FrankV : Hey Jeff, that's not funny! AFC FrankV : :) AFC Jeff : But its true, it happens tomorrow! Oesterle : Not yet. I just keep using the same Mac over and over again. I must not fit the demographic. AFA Don F : Rumored Movie deal with Lorne Michaels AFA Don F : MST3K Da Movie gorsh! AFC Jeff : Just think Don, we were fans before the rest of the country knew about the Satellite of Love... AFA Don F : I lack the disposable income AFA Don F : Yeah jeff heck I was a fan before there was a MST3K! AFA Don F : I have a tape somewhere of Joel's first open stage appearance AFC FrankV : I saw him on a rerun of Saturday Night Live a couple of weeks ago. AFA Don F : So back to Apple - boom or bust? And whither (wither?) HyperCard Oesterle : What's MST3K? I watch little TV. MartinS22 : Jeepers, an forum let by a bunch of MST3K geeks. I'll just sit here and make snide remarks as we chat! AFA Don F : Mystery Scine Theater 3000 AFA Don F : oops rented fingers AFA Don F : Scine=Science AFC Jeff : Exclusively on Comedy Central Oesterle : boom. BOOM!!! AFA Don F : MartinS22<--Its been done! MartinS22 : Exclusively on demented people's TV sets! AFA Don F : Too many booms and it goes bust Oesterle : HyperCard will be sold to Symantec. Oesterle : Just kidding. : ) AFA Don F : There's an idea AFA Don F : A year or so back we were praying Apple would give it to somebody who would actually develop, support Goal2 : Well I'm gonna say good night....I'm just about done with a DL..see everyone next week! AFA Don F : and market it rather than let it sit in limbo like it has AFC FrankV : 'night AFC Jeff : Bye Lewis! Oesterle : I think some of those things were happening, just not all at once. Goal2 : Good night AFC Jeff : Nothing happens fast enough when you're standing in line waiting for it. Oesterle : I'm excited about the new version. Oesterle : Does anyone use any of the color tools for HyperCard? Oesterle : Like ColorizeHC, and HyperTint? AFL HypCrd : Oester...Have you looked at QuickColor? AFL HypCrd : (It uses ColorizeHC) Oesterle : Yes. AFL HypCrd : What do you think? Oesterle : Do you like it? AFL HypCrd : I haven't used it....I'm working of a Powerbook these days. Oesterle : A 180c, right? Oesterle : :-)\ AFL HypCrd : Yeah right...how about a small step up from PB 100. Oesterle : 140? AFL HypCrd : You got it :) Oesterle : That's a nice machine. My sister has one. AFL HypCrd : I'm probably going to upgrade to a Duo 210...if I can get a good deal on a dock somewhere. Oesterle : There are nice 3rd party docks out there. AFL HypCrd : Yes, I'm looking into them. Oesterle : How much you wanna spend on the dock? Anthony315 : ? AFL HypCrd : 0 :) Anthony315 : Hello I'm looking for a stack 1.25 to 2.0 convertor, any ideas? AFL HypCrd : Anthony AFL HypCrd : Hmmmm...you want something that will convert all stacks in a folder? Anthony315 : yes, pretty much AFL HypCrd : Oesterle, I'm not sure how much I want to pay for video out yet. Oesterle : How many stacks do you need to convert? Anthony315 : not more than 4 or 5 AFL HypCrd : Anthony...there's a stack in the software library... AFC Jeff : Stack Compacter should do that for you. AFL HypCrd : It's called.... AFL HypCrd : HC 1.2.x->2.0 Converter 2.1.sit Oesterle : Can't you just do it manually? Oesterle : You know how to, right? Anthony315 : thanks, conv. manually?? AFL HypCrd : Anthony, which version of HC do you have? Is it the Player? Oesterle : (The player converts, too, right?) Anthony315 : I've now got HC 2.0 AFL HypCrd : HC 2.0 has a convert menuitem in the File menu. Oesterle : Yes. Oesterle : Open the 1.2.5 stack in HC 2.0. Oesterle : Choose Convert Stack... from the file menu. Oesterle : That/s all there is to it. AFL HypCrd : ( I don't know about the Player) Anthony315 : sounds pretty easy, thanks AFL HypCrd : I wish all questions were that easy to answer :) Scottie17 : Evening All Oesterle : player converts. Just checked. AFL HypCrd : Oesterle...what's your HC background? Oesterle : I have in front of me the review of the RasterOps DuoMate 16sc. Scottie17 : Ev-en-ing All AFL HypCrd : Hi, Scott AFL HypCrd : Got a Hypercard question? Scottie17 : YA what about COLOR! Oesterle : How do you want to use color? Scottie17 : Any and everyway possible AFC FrankV : HyperCard does not currently directly support color... nor will the next version... Scottie17 : What improvments will 2.3 have. AFC FrankV : there are several third-party add-ons that support it in various ways, however none of them offer AFC FrankV : a truely integrated solution. AFA Don F : Yeesh got bumped Oesterle : Apple has only announced 2.2. Scottie17 : Thats what I ment AFC FrankV : 2.2 will mostly concern itself with the AppleScript compliance and a few other goodies that have not AFC FrankV : been announced. Scottie17 : AppleScript really isn't my thing! Oesterle : What kinds of things would you recommend to do color in 2.1 or 2.2? Oesterle : From the easiest to the hardest? Scottie17 : Color Tools AFC FrankV : Depends on what you want to do. Scottie17 : I heard that you can make self running Apps with 2.2. AFC FrankV : You can do that with 2.1 as well. Scottie17 : No Way! AFC FrankV : Way! Scottie17 : NOOO Way! Scottie17 : How? AFC FrankV : The latest developer licensing kit from Claris includes tools to make your stacks stand-alone. Oesterle : With the HyperCard Player Licensing kit. AFC Jeff : Hang on folks! AFC Jeff : The one thing you should know about the self running version... AFC Jeff : It starts at 700K... anything you add is extra. Oesterle : But I don't have $700,000 to spare. Scottie17 : Thanks for all the answers. But I better be going. Places to go, people to see. AFC Jeff : No, 700Kbytes. AFC FrankV : I didn't say it was great... I just said it would do it. :) Oesterle : :-) AFA Don F : Hah! Oesterle : I think 700K is not too bad. Look at the overhead of 4D compiled apps. Scottie17 : So long AFC FrankV : 'night Oesterle : Especially for custom apps. AFC FrankV : Well people I have to call it a night too... Oesterle : The new version of MSWord is supposedly 28 megs, fully installed.