8/8/94 6:29:47 PM Opening ÒChat Log 8/8/94Ó for recording. Ad Randy : Hi, Don! AFL Don : Hello, Randy! What's up? Ad Randy : (Noticed you're a ham... I'm WA4FJF)... AFL Don : Hey, how about that! I'm K6VH... Ad Randy : nice call! AFA Fixit : Hi guys AFL Don : Hello, Walt! AFL Don : What bands do you operate, Randy? Ad Randy : <-- love DXing... 20, 15, and 10 mostly. AFL Don : I need 1 or 2 more countries for DXCC, that after being on the air since 1946... Ad Randy : So... K6VH is a MAJOR honor-roller! I've been active since age 14... I'm 33 now. Have around 260 Ad Randy : confirmed. AFL Don : that's so.. AFL Don : Wow, I'm impressed... I still enjoy working DX, it's just that every time I connect it's a country AFL Don : I already have on the list! Ad Randy : heh! AFA Fixit : Need to start going for the new Eastern European countries. AFL Don : ...hardly worth the effort these days, what with the low sunspot count... Ad Randy : The end of the cold war has completely messed with my mind vis-a-vis call sign prefixes! hehe Sceeter8 : Anyone got an Apple I? AFL Don : Me too... I never know who I've worked 'til I get a QSL these days... Ad Randy : Well, I'm outta here... just wanted to stop by and say hi and be reassured that my A2 staff friends Ad Randy : will be around for awhile. AFL Don : Hello, Sceeter! No Apple I computers here! AFL Don : We'll try, Randy! Good DX, 73, etc... Ad Randy : (Sceeter, Apple 1's are rare! One went at a collector's auction last year for around $12,000.) Sceeter8 : Really? Sceeter8 : Wow... Ad Randy : 73 es DX to you, Don! :D Sceeter8 : I wonder if Mac 128k's will do that too. AFL Don : ...not the same thing, I'm afraid.. AFA Fixit : There were a whole lot more Mac 128s Ad Randy : True, Sceeter... They only made something like a hundred Apple 1's... they made thousands of 128s. Sceeter8 : I guess... Ad Randy : Don, how many Apple 1s were made. Sceeter8 : There were a lot more then a hundred... AFA Fixit : Gee, I wonder what my 3.5" DuoDisk is worth. AFL Don : ...beats me, couldn't have been high production though... Ad Randy : Maybe even less, Sceeter. Sceeter8 : remember, $666.66, that is where their big start was.... AFL Don : ...a 3.5 inch DuoDisk????? AFA Fixit : I think there were six of those made. AFL Don : Wow! Sceeter8 : Six of what? Ad Randy : They made a few Apple 1 boards in the garage. The company geared up and the Apple 2 was manufactured. Sceeter8 : What is a DuoDisk? AFL Don : You just might have something there, Walt... AFA Fixit : Two 3.5" UniDisks in a stack. Ad Randy : nite AFL Don : 73, Randy! CUL AFA Fixit : I think that it is one of three that got out of Apple. Sceeter8 : What? Sceeter8 : What is a DuoDisk? AFL Don : Wonder why they abandoned it... Sceeter8 : What is a UniDisk? AFL Don : Two drives, one box, Sceeter... AFA Fixit : A DuoDisk was two 5.25" floppies in a single box. AFA Fixit : Was popular for awhile. Sceeter8 : I don't get it, two floppy drives? AFL Don : UniDisk is a 3.5-inch drive that could be used on an Apple //e Sceeter8 : For which computer? Apple II? Sceeter8 : OHHHHHH Sceeter8 : Thank you... AFL Don : What don't you get, Sceeter? AFA Fixit : Yep, for the Apple II. Sceeter8 : I got it now Don... Sceeter8 : So does anyone have an Apple III? AFL Don : :) Sceeter8 : Anyone? AFL Don : ...saw on once, also saw a Lisa once... Sceeter8 : Lisa's aren't rare. AFL Don : saw one Sceeter8 : Do the Apple III's come in the same Apple II box? AFL Don : I think they looked more like Lisas... AFA Fixit : No, it's a totally different animal. I've got one in the basement. AFA Fixit : Weighs twice as much as a II Sceeter8 : Explain what it looks like? AFA Fixit : It's about three inches wider. The keyboard juts out from the blockish main unit. The main CPU unit AFA Fixit : has a 5.25" floppy drive built in. Sceeter8 : Wow... Sceeter8 : So do you think I could get my hands on an Apple I somewhere? AFL Don : Why? Sceeter8 : Collector. AFL Don : You'd probably have to outbid other collectors... Sceeter8 : I'm not spending $12,000!! AFL Don : Then you may have to collect pictures of Apple I computers... Sceeter8 : Heh... AFA Fixit : About the only way to get one on the cheap would be to find one at a garage sale. ;) AFL Don : ...there's an idea, Apple Computer Trading Cards! AFL Don : I'll trade you one Sculley for two Jobs... Sceeter8 : I'll trade you an Woz universal remote for a Lisa card.... AFL Don : You mean the Cloud 9? Sceeter8 : Whatever company it was that made it. AFL Don : I never did see one, but Woz apparently thought it was going to be a hot item... Sceeter8 : Like everything he makes. AFL Don : ...wonder what he's doing now... Sceeter8 : I know... Sceeter8 : he is teaching kids Mac at schools.. AFA Fixit : Only problem is that it took too long and cost too much. Taiwan and Japan beat him to the punch with Sceeter8 : there was a chat on eWorld with him there. AFA Fixit : cheaper remotes. Sceeter8 : He goes to schools, buys kids Macs...and teaches them it. Sceeter8 : When did he leave Apple? AFL Don : ...I do recall that he wanted to teach... Not a bad thing to do... AFL Don : For him, life must be like it is for the astronauts who walked on the moon. What can be done for a topper? Sceeter8 : Woz has more respect than the president, sports players...combined, plus whoever you like... Sceeter8 : We should see more of him. AFL Don : ...you may be right Sceeter8 : Well, I'm off.... AFL Don : Thanks for dropping by, Sceeter! Sceeter8 : So long. AFL Don : Hey, Marty! AFL Don : LTNS! IIProMarty : Hello IIProMarty : My name isn't on the Hi line! IIProMarty : Let me try again IIProMarty : There AFL Don : I had you on the Hi Line before! IIProMarty : I wasn't on mine AFA Fixit : You're on my Hi line. AFL Don : bizarre... IIProMarty : Must be a Mac thing AFL Don : Right... Maybe they're rationing Hi-Line adds to Apple 2 computers... AFC Softy : ----------=========[}}}} Marty AFL Don : Hello, Larry! AFC Softy : Hi Don :) IIProMarty : Hey Softy AFC Softy : What is this?? A wake? ;) AFL Don : that's about it... IIProMarty : I'm waiting to get slapped. IIProMarty : (Read your Email) AFC Softy : Why? You go buy the PB? IIProMarty : Uh. Yeah AFC Softy : okay... AFL Don : Hello, Marvin! AFC Marvin : Hello Don. AFC Marvin : Hello to the rest of the group here. IIProMarty : I got a deal (I think). MacWarehouse had Duo 230s for sale at $899. IIProMarty : Hi Marvin AFC Softy : Cool Marty :) AFL Don : Did you get a dock, Marty? IIProMarty : No. Just the Duo. AFL Don : That's about half the price 230s were going for when I was considering one earlier... AFA Fixit : Somebody had DuoDocks for $499 recently. AFC Softy : For some reason now.... I'm seeing ads for brand new PB180 4/120/modems now for under 2 grand. IIProMarty : This one has 4 Meg RAM and 80 Meg HD AFL Don : Wow! AFL Don : 4 megs is a little confining. That's what my PB170 has, but with RamDoubler it works fine... AFC Softy : The modem's the Apple Express job... but it's weird that everyone seems to have them. AFL Don : Hello, FreeByrd! IIProMarty : I'll add more memory later on. $899 is about all I dare spend right now. FreeByrd 1 : Good evening. AFL Don : Welcome to the Apple Hardware Forum Chat! AFL Don : Consider RamDoubler, Marty... I can't find any drawbacks, and it's just like having 8 megs... FreeByrd 1 : Thanks. Am gearing up for delivery of PowerMac 6100/60 at work. IIProMarty : It works okay with just 4 Meg> IIProMarty : ? AFL Don : That'll be quite nice... AFL Don : That's what I thought at first, Marty... FreeByrd 1 : Hope so. Anyone heard any bugs yet? IIProMarty : Cool. IIProMarty : I got it mostly because I'll be traveling between schools when I return to work in Sept. AFL Don : Connectix has an AO only offer for RamDoubler for $49 or so... AFA Fixit : The place to look for PowerMac bugs would be the Mac Hardware Forum, keyword MHW. FreeByrd 1 : <-- Guesses no one's heard of any bugs. . . AFL Don : Oh, you're going to be a peripatetic scholar? IIProMarty : Hey! Watch that! :) AFL Don : Although I'm using a PowerBook, FreeByrd, I really don't follow the Mac parade that closely... IIProMarty : I'll be teaching 3 classes of 6th graders IIProMarty : 1 of 7th grade, and I'll spend 1 period managing the Novell network in the office. IIProMarty : No duties :) AFA Fixit : I've heard of a few bugs, just can't remember what they are right now. AFL Don : <---speechless AFL Don : no duties 'til the network goes down some winter night! Mr bill rk : goood eveeningk! AFL Don : Hello, Mr bill... Welcome to the Apple Hardware Forum chat... IIProMarty : They don't run the network at night... only when school is in session. IIProMarty : BTW, where'd you get the info about Connectix's special offer? AFL Don : Oh, ok... That'll be a break... AFL Don : Keyword Connectix, and it's buried in one of the files accessed from their menu... AFL Don : Easy to find... Mr bill rk : I have the wondrous responsibility to provide support to make some Apples work in classroom AFL Don : Not THAT big a deal, Price Club has RamDoubler for $54.95, but $5 is Five Bucks! AFL Don : Great, Bill, how can we help you/ AFL Don : ? AFL Don : Some us here tonight are teachers... Mr bill rk : and I am a PC man..I cut my teeth on a 32k commodore, but moved up to PC's, and missed all the apples. IIProMarty : I've been looking for it for 5 minutes. Not so easy to find. AFL Don : The Apple is a terrific machine, great for classrooms. AFL Don : I saw it just last week... IIProMarty : I found it. IIProMarty : It's in Connectix's library. Mr bill rk : What I have is one Mac model M0001, 2-//gs's, 1-//e, and my own //c (a recent garage sale) IIProMarty : Thanks Don AFL Don : You've got the basis for a terrific setup, I think... IIProMarty : I like the Apple IIs also. Use a great many IIc+ computers in my classroom(s). Mr bill rk : and I need to locate some good software for the classroom.... I don't have much of a budget AFL Don : I used a //e in my college physics lab for years, really got some mileage out of it. Mr bill rk : as the school is a poor neighborhood parochial school. IIProMarty : Which reminds me... IIProMarty : Some of the computers I'll be using are IIe computers. What hardware do I need to... IIProMarty : connect a 3.5" drive to them? AFL Don : Check out HyperStudio for HyperCard type lessons on the 2GS's... AppleWorks for WP, DB, Spreadsheets. IIProMarty : (Assuming the hardware is still available) Mr bill rk : (my spelling is good, typing is poor... AFL Don : You'll need a UniDisk controller, a UniDisk drive (hard to find, but they work good...) AFL Don : Hello, Beth! LTNS! IIProMarty : Thanks BETH DHA : Hi Don :) AFL Don : It's been a year or more, I think! IIProMarty : Bill... check out HyperCard IIGS for the IIGS computers. IIProMarty : It's available in the software libraries. AFL Don : The author is a teacher, really has a handle on what it takes to make good learning tools. AFL Don : It's very easy to write your own lessons on it, and they'll look like a million bux. Students will AFL Don : like it.. IIProMarty : AppleWriter is also free. It'll work on any of the Apple IIs you mentioned. IIProMarty : (for word processing) AFC Softy : bak..... ::scrolling back::: Mr bill rk : Well, one problem is I haven't yet gotten a modem to work with the apples, I use cards in my AFL Don : AppleWriter is one of most underestimated programs around. Mr bill rk : pc's and the slots are almost the same size....say...what if I trimmed the card to fit...??? AFL Don : No dice, Bill... It isn't just a matter of mechanical fit... You'll probably need what's IIProMarty : Can you connect with a Mac? AFL Don : called a Super Serial Card, or a clone of an SSC, if you use an external modem. AFC Softy : Marty... the Apple II 3.5 Card (the one that works with the FDHD drive) would be a better choice over AFL Don : You can use an external modem that works on a PC, but you have to feed it with RS-232C from an Mr bill rk : in any case, I can download.... but no transfer mechanism.... I could build a serial cable AFC Softy : the UniDisk card. AFL Don : Apple card... Mr bill rk : cable, but I don't know the pinouts, nor do I have any software for both AFC Softy : (that's MHO anyway... :) IIProMarty : Thanks Softy Mr bill rk : (Right now, I don't even have an OS for the Mac) AFL Don : ...I think you'd be better off not trying to invent the wheel, but see what you can get on the used AFL Don : market that you can plug right in... Mr bill rk : just my point... AFL Don : You can download a Mac OS from AO... Mr bill rk : about this apple card for the RS-232C AFL Don : The SuperSerial Card is very commonly used to drive a lot of printers and/or modems. AFL Don : There's a configuration plug that changes it from a printer card to a modem card... IIProMarty : HA! Someone's advertising a Duo 230 4/80 for sale in the classifieds for $950. :D AFL Don : Very standard piece of hardware... AFC Softy : (Marty... FWIW... the UniDisk Card/Drive is probably cheaper... but none of the hardware can be AFC Softy : recycled to other systems (ie.. use the drives on Macs). AFC Marvin : Good old AppleWriter... that was my first word processor. I paid the grand sum of $20 for it. I AFC Softy : <-- thinking of ways to convince schools it's worth the cost. ;) AFA Fixit : You can download Mac System 7.0.1 from AO. AFC Marvin : used it for quite a while then it saved me a bundle of money on an upgrade deal for Appleworks 1.0, IIProMarty : Softy, the reason I want this stuff is that the school I'll be working at in September has a mixture of IIc+ and IIe computers. AFC Marvin : which I later kept upgrading until 3.0. Don is correct about AppleWriter being a good little AFL Don : I was thinking that Apple started charging for 7.0.1, but I guess it was 7.1 when they started... AFC Marvin : word processor. AFC Softy : (btw.... Hi Beth! :) BETH DHA : (Hi Softy :) ) IIProMarty : I wanna use AppleWorks with the kids for the last 5 lessons. AFC Softy : (Ahhh.. I see... hmmm I wonder if the FDHD would work on a IIc+?? ) IIProMarty : I don't wanna use two different sizes of disks. IIProMarty : The IIc+ has a 3.5" drive built in. AFL Don : AppleWorks from 5.25-inch disks is the pits... IIProMarty : Really AFC Softy : I know Marty... the FDHD also reads/writes 800k's tho) Mr bill rk : I was 'told' that the //c could accept data at a very limited rate..300 baud AFL Don : ...at least once you've found out how well it works from a 3.5-inch disk... AFA Fixit : If the IIc+ works with the FDHD, I suspect that it would only work with 800k disks IIProMarty : Yeah, but I only need to equip the IIe's with 3.5's AFL Don : Hello RMR! Welcome to the Apple Hardware Forum Chat! AFC Softy : Walt... like the IIgs would, right? AFL Don : Hello, Evan! Welcome to the Apple Hardware Forum Chat! EvanSkol : Hi, Don! AFC Softy : (ie same SmartPort chip in both systems) AFL Don : I ran three //e's with UniDisks at my college, (until one was stolen...) AFL Don : Worked great... AFA Fixit : Right. IIProMarty : I think you're off on a tangent. I don't wanna do 1.4 Meg disks in class. IIProMarty : Life would be so much simpler if Apple had just continued to sell the damn IIs. AFL Don : ...no point, you can get all of AppleWorks plus a lot of TimeOut stuff on one 800-k disk, still AFL Don : have room for data... AFC Softy : Marty... you don't have to use the FDHD drives for 1.4MB. BUT... those drives can be used on a Mac if AFL Don : Right, Marty! AFC Softy : the school decides to (Lord help them) replace the Apple II's for Macs later. IIProMarty : That has to happen sometime Softy. It's getting harder and harder to find replacement parts. IIProMarty : (or additional parts) IIProMarty : When you need stuff for classroom use you usually don't have time to hunt. AFC Softy : Right... that's why I lean towards using the FDHD over the UniDisk.... the UniDisk sucks when it comes Mr bill rk : About the //c. How fast will it accept data by modem?... AFC Softy : to speed. IIProMarty : 2400 baud I think, Bill. IIProMarty : Maybe more. AFL Don : Right, 2400 baud is no problem.. Mr bill rk : 2400 is a fair speed, has anyone used the "add-on" type drives...with the //gs IIProMarty : You mean hard drives? AFL Don : Not sure what you mean, Bill... All drives are addon to the 2GS... Mr bill rk : I have a 5.25 from our local monthly hamfest/computerfest flea market.. AFC Softy : afk a few minutes... gotta go move a neighbors van :) IIProMarty : (The IIGS have no built in drives) AFL Don : I'd say don't waste time/money on 5.25-inch drives on the 2GS... AFL Don : If you want to do something serious with the 2GS, you will need to increase memory.... IIProMarty : I have 4 megs in mine. Mr bill rk : the ID on it is NPH-501A as a clone //c drive.. IIProMarty : You'll also want a hard drive (for serious work) AFL Don : doesn't ring any bells for me, Bill... IIProMarty : Goodnight all. Thanks for the help/advice! AFL Don : Hey, good to see ya again, Marty! Hurry back! Mr bill rk : ?? will 128k software run on the //gs? AFL Don : Sure... Mr bill rk : no tweaking... AFL Don : Unless you're talking about Mac stuff... The 2GS emulates the //e almost perfectly, has (effectively) AFL Don : 128k of memory available for program use... AFL Don : The 2GS will work as a //e in emulation mode, or can do really marvelous things in native mode AFL Don : where it uses GS/OS for the operating system... Mr bill rk : ??? I thought the //gs had 1 Meg of memory...?? AFL Don : That's auxiliary memory, which can (and almost needs to be) expanded... Mr bill rk : how do I boot as native/emulation mode..? AFL Don : There are two banks of 64K on the motherboard that are used for the memory needed immediately by AFL Don : running programs. Mr bill rk : what is the Aux mem used for...? AFL Don : If you boot a disk with ProDos 8 on it, it'll run just like a //e. To run in native mode, you boot AFL Don : into a system disk (or a hard disk with the system installed on it), and you can then run native or AFL Don : emulation mode at will... AFC Softy : bak :) AFL Don : The problem is, with all the drivers etc needed, it's all but impossible to fit GS/OS on a single Mr bill rk : now. I have this //c clone dive daisy chained to the 3.5 drive, AFL Don : 800-k disk... Mr bill rk : it interacts with the system, but I cannot boot from it... AFC Softy : (Don... I have (2) 5.25" drives for my IIgs. ;) AFL Don : But you should be able to boot from an Apple 3.5 drive, which needs to be first in the daisy chain.. AFC Softy : (but I admit they're only good for DOS 3.3 stuff. :) Mr bill rk : speaking of two drives... Mr bill rk : do the dual drive modules work on the //gs? AFL Don : (I have two 5.25-inch drives on the 2GS in my office, haven't used them for years!) Mr bill rk : iI saw some called "dual drive" for $25? AFC Softy : The DuoDrive works... you have to have it on the end of the disk drive chain... and I *think* you have AFL Don : Don't waste $25 on 5.25-inch drives, my recommendation... AFC Softy : to do a small modification inside to it. AFC Softy : But I agree with Don... if you don't do any old DOS 3.3 stuff... it isn't worth it. Mr bill rk : What is the preferred os for the Apples... AFC Softy : ..and the only DOS 3.3 stuff you would use would be old games... Games written for the IIgs are far AFC Softy : superior anyway. AFC Marvin : I agree. For the first time in a long long time I used my 5.25 drive on my IIGS to transfer some data AFL Don : For the 2GS, GS/OS 6.0.1 (which you can download from the AHW library), or ProDos 8 version 2.X, AFL Don : which you can also download from here... AFC Marvin : to my old II+ which has only a 5.25 drive. So my use of the 5.25 drive is limited to accessing data stored on my old 5.25 disks. Not something I need to do very often. AFL Don : BTW, a word of caution... Don't use any ProDos version lower than 1.4!!! If you have old software AFL Don : with an older version on it, it'll cause you no end of grief eventually. There was an early bug, not AFL Don : squashed until version 1.4. AFL Don : Better you should use the latest ProDos 8 version. For one thing, earlier versions will give you the AFL Don : wrong date from clock reads... Mr bill rk : Clock? AFL Don : The 2GS has an internal clock, all files are time stamped, many programs use the clock. AFL Don : Early ProDos 8 versions decode the date incorrectly... No problem with GS/OS, though.. Mr bill rk : Real time, Battery, or virtual while running? AFL Don : There's a battery in the 2GS, lithium, that'll probably need changing soon. (Easy to do) AFL Don : While the computer is running, the clock is maintained by the power supply, battery supports AFL Don : it when the computer is off... The battery also maintains a lot of internal settings you won't want AFL Don : to change each time the computer is fired up... Mr bill rk : Fat or Flat? Mr bill rk : Same asarom battery on a pc.. AFL Don : The battery is a lithium cell, axial leads, soldered in place, under the power supply. AFL Don : Same battery used in a pc will work. Mr bill rk : as a rom (coms) BCS Frank : Don, Bill, Marvin, Larry, Hi! :) AFL Don : Hey, Hi Frank! AFL Don : You just missed Marty! BCS Frank : Hmmm.. BCS Frank : Marty is hard to miss! :) Mr bill rk : hi Frank, I'm learning about Apples and how they are the same ... Mr bill rk : >how< BCS Frank : You came to the right place to learn about Apples :) BCS Frank : What kind have you got? AFL Don : ....Getting late here, I'm going to have to pull the plug soon... AFC Marvin : Hello Frank! AFL Don : If you have questions, Bill, just send E-mail and we'll try to help... Mr bill rk : I still bemoan the loss of c/pm and the advent of MeSs DOS Mr bill rk : Ok... little guy is fussing.. bed time.. Mr bill rk : Night all.... AFL Don : Cheer up, Bill, you're about to begin to use a real educational computer! BCS Frank : Bye Bill, Don :) AFC Marvin : Nite Bill. AFL Don : So long, all! CU later... 8/8/94 9:19:50 PM Closing Log file.