6/20/94 6:28:42 PM Opening ÒChat Log 6/20/94Ó for recording. AFL Don : Hello, LincM! LincM32841 : Hello. AFL Don : Welcome to what will become the Apple Hardware Forum Chat.. AFL Don : First time with us? I don't remember seeing your screen name before... AFL Don : What computer do you use? LincM32841 : Apple //e AFL Don : Very good! Spent a lot of hours on a //e! AFL Don : Any problems or questions re: your //e? AFA Fixit : Hi Don AFL Don : Hello, Marvin! AFC Marvin : Good evening Don & Walt. AFL Don : Did the book arrive yet? AFA Fixit : Hi Marvin AFC Marvin : Yes, I forgot to mention that the book arrived in fine shape. Tnx for sending it. Looks interesting. AFC Marvin : Has anyone else been here yet this evening? AFL Don : Good... AFA Fixit : I found one. Don't know what condition it's in. Battery is probably on the dead side. AFL Don : Well, that wasn't bad timing... AFL Don : I'll tell 'em, they can call you if that's convenient... AFL Don : Hello, MJP, Becky! Welcome to the Apple Hardware Forum Chat! MJPrice : Hi :) AFA Fixit : Trying to call me is not usually convenient for the caller. BeckyW4 : Hello Don :) Bet you don't know who I am :) AFC Marvin : Hello Becky! AFL Don : The company that bought the CAI program I worked on for the college has hit the wall on TimeMaster cards, they're essential to the system! AFL Don : Nobody has any left over now that AE is kaput.. AFL Don : Trying to buy used ones now, it seems everyone who has one wants to keep it... AFL Don : Walt, the battery shouldn't be a problem. Generic NiCad cells should work... AFA Fixit : Well, I have no use for it. AFL Don : What's your previous screen-name(s), Becky? BeckyW4 : Haven't seen this name in awhile eh Walt? :) AFA Fixit : Been a few years... ;) BeckyW4 : <--- Kate :) AFL Don : Can't say that I have, Becky... Not in my mental database... OIC, Kate! Hi Kate... AFA Fixit : What is a good price for someone that's hurting? AFL Don : Had a suspicion! AFC Marvin : Kate!??? AFC Marvin : Sure had me fooled Kate. BeckyW4 : LOL :D This was my original name... My real name is Rebecca but Walt calls me by my middle name :) AFC Marvin : Kate, I understand the middle name syndrome. I have it too. Marvin is my middle name. AFL Don : ...it was the W4 that threw men... Only W4 I could come up with is a form used by the IRS... AFL Don : I think so, Walt... Worth a try... BeckyW4 : I like it Marvin... I wanted to start going by Kate for years but didn't until I met Walt :) AFL Don : threw me, not threw men! AFC Marvin : I just realized I got bit by procrastination. I have an AE memory card in my IIC+ at work. The card AFC Marvin : includes a clock. Some months ago the clock started running very slow. I had intended to take it out and send it to AE for repair. Too late now I guess. AFL Don : I'd check the NiCad backup battery first, about time for those to go flaky... AFC Marvin : It runs super slow even when powered up. I can set the clock when I arrive at work and by the time I AFL Don : Funny, the TimeMaster I'm using on the BBS board is an old one, still works perfectly... AFC Marvin : go home it will be quite slow. I can pull the card out and power it on the bench and see what freq the oscillator is running. It might be something simple in the timing oscillator circuit. Or I can procrastinate until the computer is obsolete. AFL Don : Maybe the crystal is getting sluggish.. AFL Don : Hmmm.. Just a thought. I've seen cases where a crystal oscillator starts to run slow when the problem was a bad decoupling cap, so that Vcc was not a low-impedance power source at the oscillating frequency. AFC Marvin : I wonder what the oscillator frequency should be on that card? AFL Don : My guess is 32,768 Hz... : That's 2^15 power, and is the frequency used by a lot of digital clocks... AFC Marvin : I should also check the backup battery. It might be that the oscillator runs on the battery all the time. AFL Don : I think it does run from the battery, which sort of floats online being charged at a trickle when the computer is on... AFL Don : Hi Bob! Good to see you! AFA Fixit : Hey Bob! Ophtho Bob : Hello Don, Walt Becky, Marvin AFL Don : We're talking TimeMaster HO clock cards right now! AFC Marvin : It might be that when the computer is powered up the trickle is not enough to bring up the battery voltage. I should check that first since it is the simplest to do. Ophtho Bob : OK. AFC Marvin : Hello Bob! AFL Don : Especially if there's a shorted cell in the NiCad battery. That might drop the voltage too much through the decoupling resistor so that the clock gets lazy.. Just a thought... AFC Marvin : The battery on the card is old enough to fail by now. I am amazed that the battery in my IIGS AFC Marvin : has not failed. It is still the original battery. AFL Don : Yes, Marvin, you're on borrowed time! Ophtho Bob : Can I ask a question about a memory card? AFL Don : Sure thing, Bob.. Ophtho Bob : I just purchased a 8 Meg card on line. Probably a 3rd party card not brand- name but it does say GS 8 Plus RAM and has a Yellow color. Ophtho Bob : It takes 8 Megs with one Meg already soldered in. AFA Fixit : You too Marvin. My battery must be five years old. AFL Don : I'll betcha that the 1-K current-limiting resistor in your 2GS is a little low in value and that's why your 2GS isn't as picky as some... AFL Don : The lithium battery is protected by 10% 1-K 1/2 W resistor, and this seems to lower the voltage just enough.. AFC Marvin : Walt, I don't remember which year I bought the IIGS but my battery has to be at least five years old AFC Marvin : too. AFL Don : Hmmmm, Bob, I don't think I've seen that card... Ophtho Bob : The owner said he bought at a computer show and it was very expensive. Ophtho Bob : Nor has anyone else. It works OK and I checked the chips and they seem to be AFL Don : I draw a blank on it, Bob... It's not an AE product, I'm pretty sure... Ophtho Bob : OK. AFA Fixit : Could be a variant of the OctoRam. That board reverted back to the designer. AFA Fixit : Only 8 Megabyte GS board I can think of. Ophtho Bob : I am trying to buy more memory (8 chips to a Meg) but don't know what to ask Ophtho Bob : for. AFL Don : OctoRam sounds consistent with 8 Megs... Betcha you're right, Walt... AFL Don : What chips are used in the ram you already have? AFA Fixit : What are the part numbers on the chips that are on the board? Ophtho Bob : All I can tell is that they are made in Korea. AFL Don : No numbers? Ophtho Bob : The board also has the letters ISS4 on it. PaulBZ : If it is an OctoRam it uses 1-Meg SIMMs I believe. Ophtho Bob : It is a BIG board. AFL Don : Hello, Paul! AFA Fixit : No numbers at all? PaulBZ : The other 8 Meg board is the new CVTech card which replaced their piggyback Ophtho Bob : It takes 8 chips per Meg, PaulBZ : unit AFL Don : Actually, my 6 Megabytes is overkill... Much more than I can imagine needing... Ophtho Bob : It seems to have a set of connection pins to attach something else also. Ophtho Bob : Yes Walt Km41c1000P-10 846 Korea. Ophtho Bob : This is the number on the chips. AFA Fixit : Then they are fairly common 1 Megabit chips. AFC Marvin : I wonder if those connecting pins are for a piggyback card with more ram or maybe the pins are just AFC Marvin : for production testing. AFA Fixit : 100 ns. PaulBZ : Does it look like you could plug in a second card into a connector on the side PaulBZ : of that card? Ophtho Bob : Yes it does Paul. AFL Don : hello, Solar! Welcome to the Apple Hardware Forum chat! PaulBZ : You must have the CVTech 4-Meg with a piggyback option AFC Marvin : Hi Paul. Solar Fed : Thanks Don AFC Marvin : Hello Solar! Solar Fed : Marvin Hi PaulBZ : I have one with a 1-Meg Apple card plugged into the slot to give me 6 Meg PaulBZ : on a Rom 3 AFL Don : First time with us, Fed? Don't remember the screen name... Ophtho Bob : It appears to take the full 8 Megs on the same board. Solar Fed : Yea, curious! AFL Don : What computer do you use? Ophtho Bob : I called Alltech and am sending them the board. PaulBZ : How many chips does it hold? Ophtho Bob : IIGS doesn't everyone??? Solar Fed : Home LCIII, Work Q800 AFC Marvin : IIGS here too! Ophtho Bob : 56 AFL Don : IIGS here.. Ophtho Bob : not counting the 8 soldered in. Ophtho Bob : They will check it out and recommend the proper chips. AFA Fixit : All you need are 1 Megabit CAS before RAS chips for the board. Ophtho Bob : It is a real strange one however but it works fine. PaulBZ : 56 chips would be 7 Meg???? AFL Don : Probably faster, cheaper if you stuff it yourself.. Ophtho Bob : Yes but it already has 1 Meg soldered in to the board. AFL Don : That works, 7 socketed Megs, 1 hardwired Meg. PaulBZ : okay then it is 8 Meg Solar Fed : ? AFL Don : No protocol, Fed, just jump right in... Ophtho Bob : Walt, do you think that those would be the proper chips?? Solar Fed : Is the discussion on Apple II? AFA Fixit : Definitely AFL Don : Usually, Fed, but no strict boundaries... Whatever anyone wants to discuss... AFA Fixit : 120 nanoseconds or faster should work fine. Solar Fed : What Simms are ?ed here Ophtho Bob : Do you think Alltech is good to order them from or elsewhere Walt? AFA Fixit : The board does seem to using 100 nanosecond chips. AFA Fixit : Alltech is probably not the best source. Ophtho Bob : Who else then Walt and exactly what should I ask for? AFA Fixit : I'd try The Chip Merchant at 800-426-6375. AFL Don : We're talking about memory for an Apple-2 board, Fed.. AFL Don : The Chip Merchant has good prices, from what I hear... AFC Marvin : I found Chip Merchant to have good prices when I wanted memory chips for my Powerbook. Solar Fed : What CPU??? AFL Don : 65C02, Fed... AFL Don : oops, that's the CPU for a //e... AFA Fixit : You're looking for 1 Megabit CAS before RAS chips of at least 120 nanoseconds refresh. AFA Fixit : if you give them the KM41C1000P-100 number they should have no trouble matching it. AFL Don : It's a special chip with both 8 and 16 -bit capabilities used in the 2GS, not in Macs PaulBZ : I think 150 ns will work unless he is running a 10-Mhz accelerator. AFA Fixit : Normally I would say yes, but you cannot be sure. AFA Fixit : With 100 ns chips on the board, makes you wonder. AFL Don : If you go on the cheap, get slower chips and they don't work, you might have to eat 'em... PaulBZ : I'm looking for the same chips for a GS Ram 6-Meg card!!! Ophtho Bob : Could I use that board with a 9-MHz Zip and ram fast SCSI? Ophtho Bob : Hey Frank!! AFL Don : Some doubt about whether it would DMA... You might have to set up the RamFAST telling it you're using BCS Frank : Bob, Paul, Gang, Hi! :) AFA Fixit : Hiya Frank. AFL Don : a TransWarp GS to throttle the DMA... AFL Don : Hello, Frank! AFC Marvin : Hello Frank! AFA Fixit : With a RamFAST and Zip, you should be ok. BCS Frank : Somebody throttling their TransWarp S? BCS Frank : GS ? AFL Don : Lotsa people wanted to, Frank! PaulBZ : equivalent numbers are MCM511000,MB81C1000, HM511000,MT4C1024,M5M41000, Ophtho Bob : OK Walt, Thanks. Solar Fed : Catch ya later room. Thanks AFL Don : Hurry back, Fed! PaulBZ : UPD421000,MSM511000,KM41C1000,TL511000 PaulBZ : HI FRANK Ophtho Bob : Thanks Paul. PaulBZ : No problem did you get the numbers? Ophtho Bob : YES :-) PaulBZ : I cross referenced them awhile ago because I was looking for ram for a PaulBZ : GSRAM card AFL Don : Hey, thanks, Paul... That's good reference info for everybody... Ophtho Bob : You bet! PaulBZ : I have a few more but that should give a start. PaulBZ : If you want manufactures send me E-Mail at pbauer@mit.edu BCS Frank : What are the numbers, memory chips? PaulBZ : Yes PaulBZ : 1-Meg x 1 Ram chips BCS Frank : How much of an advantage, in the GS is it to use memory cards with SIMMs? AFA Fixit : They tend to be more compact. PaulBZ : They may run a little cooler. Less power. BCS Frank : That's it? Smaller? BCS Frank : Ahh, less power I can grok. BCS Frank : Less likely to squirm out of their sockets? AFL Don : grok? BCS Frank : Grok, to take in, to comprehend, to be one with, literally, to drink. AFA Fixit : I guess you never read A Stranger in a Strange Land. PaulBZ : I'll see you all later. Good night. AFA Fixit : Night Paul BCS Frank : ref. Heinlein's _Stranger in a Strange Land._ BCS Frank : Night, Paul :) BCS Frank : Don, you should read Heinlein, he's the man who bought us TANSTAAFL. AFL Don : No, Frank, I've been remiss.. AFA Fixit : afk AFL Don : I stopped seriously reading science friction about 1942... BCS Frank : He invented the remote control "Waldo" arms, the waterbed, and that was just about '42. AFA Fixit : That would explain it. BCS Frank : You missed a lot of drek, and some really good pieces. AFL Don : Well, now that I'm retired, don't have to read so intensively in science fact, maybe I'll catch up... BCS Frank : Hi, DG! :") DGum : hi all AFL Don : Hello, DGum... Welcome to the Apple Hardware Forum Chat... DGum : anybody know the best price on a IIgs power supply? BCS Frank : Best price.... free. BCS Frank : But that's hard to find. :) AFC Marvin : Hello Dgum, last time I bought a IIGS power supply I found it in the AOL classified section for $50 AFC Marvin : and that was several years ago. DGum : Anybody been watching the ads? BCS Frank : Jamaco usually has a good price. BCS Frank : Alltech's a contender. AFL Don : Jameco will probably be lowest, unless you can find one offered on AO in CLASSIFIEDS... DGum : I don't know Jameco? BCS Frank : But I'd try flea markets, things like that, get a whole CPU cheap if you're lucky. AFA Fixit : Actually, it's Jameco. BCS Frank : Looking for catalog...... DGum : <=looking for pencil AFA Fixit : Haven't seen an ad in too long. Their catalogs used to make a good poor man's IC Databook. BCS Frank : Yup good catalog... got swallered up by my desk top.... can't find it, but BCS Frank : I did find a few old swell model railroad magazines. DGum : I've got about 2-3 hours of work left to finish a 3-month programming project and the IIgs BCS Frank : You don't want to use a Lionel PowerPack on your GS? DGum : just went dead. No symptoms, No warnings, nothing! BCS Frank : Fuse? AFL Don : It might not be the PS, maybe you've got a short on your motherboard or on a card. That'd AFL Don : stall the powersupply, make it look like it's bad. AFA Fixit : Well, I need to get to bed. Night folks. DGum : Apple Power Supply, the fuse is soldered to the board! BCS Frank : Pull PS, test on bench? AFL Don : Did you pull all the cards to test? AFL Don : Nite, Walt! Thanks.. BCS Frank : Night, Walt? BCS Frank : Night, Walt... :) Ophtho Bob : Gotta run Guys, Goodnight and Thanks. Have a good one. AFC Marvin : G'night Walt. AFA Fixit : Poof AFL Don : The Apple Supply is designed to stall dead when working into a short circuit. BCS Frank : Bye, Bob :) AFC Marvin : Goodnight Bob. DGum : PS is getting 117V from wall, output=0-Vdc AFL Don : ...but you can't test it by pulling the plug from the motherboard, 'cause it's designed to quit when AFL Don : there's no load... AFL Don : DGum, that would be what you'd see if the output is shorted. AFL Don : It could be a bad supply, but that's not the most likely source of your symptoms... DGum : installed I get nothing from the system, not even a green LED on motherboard or on TransWarp card AFL Don : That's what you'll see if there's a short... AFL Don : Nothing. AFL Don : The Apple 2GS supply is a switching supply, with the output from the switching transistors supplying the power to the computer. when the load is too great, the power supply stops switching, and there's no output. That's its short circuit protection... DGum : you think I have a short in the leads from the PS to the motherboard? AFL Don It's unlikely that there is a short between the power supply leads, or the plug. More likely on a card AFC Marvin : Also measure the resistance of the fuse. It should measure almost zero ohms BCS Frank : Got it! BCS Frank : GS supply from Jameco... $69.95. AFL Don : than on the motherboard. The TransWarp is a likely suspect. AFL Don : Can you swap power supplies with another 2GS just for a test? Might save you an unnecessary expense. AFC Marvin : I was going to suggest that you remove all cards from the IIGS and try it as a bare-bones computer. AFL Don : Odds are, a new power supply won't work either, and some (if not all) of the heavy duty supplies do not have good short- circuit protection. Loose metal on the motherboard will do it, and, since the shorted supply doesn't put out, you won't have a lot of burning or arcing to help you find the short. Might be a good idea to remove and replace the powersupply plug a few times. It's a common problem for these plugs to develop open contacts... Cycling the plug may fix it by scrubbing the contacts. An open plug contact might also cause your symptoms. BCS Frank : Could also be same as intermittent problem took a while to track down... loose screw shorting. BCS Frank : Jameco number, 800-831-4242. AFL Don : ...just throwing a new powersupply at the problem before making the easy checks is probably going to AFL Don : be expensive... DGum : Cord to System Saver has been in and on at least a dozen times this evening AFL Don : It's not the cord to the System Saver that's likely to fail, but rater the multi conductor plug that connects the power supply to the motherboard ... That's the culprit in many cases. AFL Don : The System Saver plugs are fused, where did you measure the 117 vac? DGum : that's only been cycled about twice :) AFL Don : I'd do it again, first off... AFL Don : 117 vac input isn't easy to measure, since the cord plugs right into the riveted power supply box... AFL Don : How did you measure it, and where? DGum : pulled power cord from back of IIgs, inserted volt meter probes, turned on SS AFL Don : That's not totally conclusive... If you have a break in the cord that introduces a high-resistance path in the cord, you'll still measure 117 vac with a high-impedance meter... The voltage has to be measured under load to be sure. Do you have another cord you can substitute? AFL Don : Your test says it's probably not an open fuse in the System Saver... BCS Frank : Try a printer cord for a quick swap. DGum : I tried another cord ( not with volt meter, just straight to IIgs) it doesn't work either AFL Don : Good idea, Frank! BCS Frank : AFL Don : Ok, then I'd start pulling cards, also give the motherboard a careful inspection. After cycling the motherboard power plug again... You may find it really is the power supply, but at least you'll know for sure when you spend the money DGum : Motherboard inspection: I'm looking for loose debris? AFL Don : Yes... Little bits of metal can and sometimes do fall through the top... A staple, for example, will short things out nicely... BCS Frank : Debris, loose parts, peeling traces, cracks... once found nickel under motherboard. AFL Don : Also, check to make sure that ALL the cards are seated squarely in their sockets. I've heard of shorts being traced to cards that were never fully squared when seated. BCS Frank : Unfortunately it wasn't a Buffalo nickel. :( DGum : thanks for help.. gotta get to sleep, and take it all apart in the morning, sigh. :( BCS Frank : Luck! AFL Don : I had to rewire the behind-the-dash pc circuits in an '82 Chevy because my daughter let a dime fall behind the BCS Frank : Looks like time to fold tent. :) AFL Don : the speedometer... What a mess, everything burned up without a trace (no pun intended!) BCS Frank : ouch! AFL Don : Not too much ouch, everything worked, still works, but I had my doubts while doing it! BCS Frank : With all those nice cooling slots too... amazing how a dime could slip through. AFL Don : It's called the Innate Perversity of Inanimate Objects, Frank... The IPOIO principle... BCS Frank : We're just lucky that more things aren't stuffed in disk drive boxes. AFL Don : Whatever can go wrong will, when left to themselves things always get worse, and nature always sides AFL Don : with any hidden defects... BCS Frank : Butter side up toast never falls. :) AFL Don : Right! AFL Don : Well, I've gotta wind things up, pull the plug (put my PowerBook to sleep) AFC Marvin : Sounds like a good idea, so will say goodnight to both of you. BCS Frank : Likewise, time to chase the birds off the modem cord. BCS Frank : Night Don, Marvin! :) AFC Marvin : See you next week. Goodnight! AFL Don : See ya both later down the pipe! AFL Don : Goodnight! 6/20/94 8:41:09 PM Closing Log file.