4/25/94 6:25:42 PM Opening ÒChat Log 4/25/94Ó for recording. AFL Don : Hello, Den... AFL Don : Welcome to what will become the Apple Hardware Forum Chat... Den10 : hi, I was hoping to get some info tonight AFL Don : go for it... AFL Don : What's your question? Den10 : I heard that Apple will be making some kind of major product announcement Den10 : on May 16th...know anything about it? AFL Don : Not a thing... Almost certainly it won't have anything to do with Apple 2, probably PowerMac or Newton... Den10 : I've been putting off buying a Powerbook 180 AFL Don : You might check keyword MOS, there's a list of new events and rumors there that's helpful... Den10 : I've heard something about "Blackbird" but no one seems to know anything about Den10 : it ...do you? AFL Don : There might be some good deals on the PB180... I use a PB170, and it's great, not sorry I bought it after it dropped from the Apple product line. It's nifty... Den10 : Will a Powerbook with an 040 processor or power PC be available soon? AFL Don : I think Blackbird is code-name for an upgraded PowerMac based laptop, but that's a guess. AFL Don : Gee, I don't know, Den... You should ask someone in the Mac area, this is the Apple-2 Hardware area so we wouldn't be as likely to hear... AFL Don : We're not in the rumor pipeline for Macstuff... Den10 : oops, sorry How do I get to the Mac area I'm new AFL Don : It's ok if you hang out here, too. We're Apple users here, just not the official Mac area... AFL Don : Use Keywords that start with M, MHW for Mac Hardware, MGR for Mac Graphics, MOS for Den10 : Thanks. Goodnight :) AFL Don : Mac Operating System, etc. AFL Don : Drop by again, Den... Good people here Den10 : I'll check those other areas for now. Maybe be back later. Thanks again. AFL Don : Keywords that start with A are Apple 2, as in AHW, ADV, etc. AFL Don : Glad to meet ya! Eric83 : Hello... :) AFL Don : Hello, Eric! Welcome to the Apple Hardware Forum Chat... AFL Don : First time with us? Eric83 : What's the subject tonight? :) Eric83 : Yup...I'm running on a Mac but I've got an Apple IIc. :) Eric83 : ...so I thought I'd drop by. :) AFL Don : Tonight is Ask Herr Fixit night, but Herr Fixit isn't here yet... AFL Don : You're eligible! Eric83 : Great! :) Eric83 : The chat starts at ten? AFL Don : PC users have to know the secret password, but any Apple User is automatically welcomed! Eric83 : The "secret password?" :) AFL Don : ...just kidding about the password, everybody's welcome, even people using brand-X computers. AFL Don : Well, the chat officially starts at 9:30, but we're usually late after Daylight Savings Time kicks in Eric83 : I was just over in the DOS forums...made a folder that said "DOS-A Brain Dead OS?" and I'm going to Eric83 : check it in a week to see how many agree. :) AFL Don : Well, I think everyone using a PC is already brainwashed... Eric83 : So is there going to be anybody here to Ask Herr Fixit? :) Eric83 : (Looks pretty empty.) AFL Don : ....nah, that's not fair, but they generally seem unaware of how neat the Apple products are... AFL Don : Yeah, it's empty, but that can change at any moment... Eric83 : How true. :) AFL Don : Walt (Herr Fixit) is working about 60 hours/week right now, has a tough time making the chats... AFL Don : But he usually comes in later.. Eric83 : I'm-a-getting the new Blackbird 68040 PowerBook when it comes out in May... :) Eric83 : It's a good thing my LC III's under warranty...I've had to replace four parts so far. :P Eric83 : The hard drive, the floppy drive, the fan, and the mouse have all been replaced. AFL Don : That's unusual... Eric83 : Very strange. :) AFL Don : Gee, what's left, the case? AFL Don : ...yeah, I know, the mb, the ps, etc. Eric83 : That's about it... :) AFL Don : Hello, Walt! Eric83 : Hello, Fixit! :) AFA Fixit : Hi Folks Eric83 : :::clap, clap, clap::: AFL Don : Now it's Ask Herr Fixit Night for sure... Tough to pull off without Herr Fixit! Eric83 : :) Eric83 : Boy...this conversation has me on the edge of my seat! ;) AFA Fixit : Herr Fixit has been working looong hours... AFA Fixit : Must be a shallow seat. AFL Don : We're just waiting for you to ask Walt a question, Eric! AFL Don : On the road tonight, Walt? Eric83 : Aha! OK...how do I attach the Apple IIc to the Mac with a null modem cable? Eric83 : Any particular steps I have to go through? AFA Fixit : You need a //c to ImageWriter II cable and serial communications software on both machines. Eric83 : Ooh...I don't have any on the Apple. Eric83 : Ah! But there'd be some on AOL, right? :) AFL Don : Probably, in ACM... Eric83 : Any shareware communications software in here? AFL Don : Not in AHW... AFA Fixit : Order America Online for the Apple II. Eric83 : Ooh...how would I download it to the Mac and then move it to the Apple? Eric83 : I don't have a modem for Apple. Eric83 : :O AFA Fixit : All you need is a modem cable and use the Mac Modem. AFL Don : Used to be a program called TIC that was shareware for the Apple... Pretty good. AFA Fixit : Unless of course you have an internal modem in the Macintosh Eric83 : Oh. :) Where could I get the modem cable? Just a normal place like CompUSA? Eric83 : Nope...it's external. AFL Don : Then you already have the cable, you're using it now... AFL Don : Just plug your modem into your 2C... Eric83 : But the serial ports on the Mac and Apple are different sizes. AFA Fixit : Might have a little trouble finding an Apple //c modem cable at CompUSA. This is a //c or Eric83 : The Apple's is bigger. AFA Fixit : Ok, it's a //c. Mail order is probably the way to go. Eric83 : Yup...the IIc+ has the normal Mac port, right? AFL Don : Hmmm. The modem port on my 2GS is identical to the Mac port, thought the 2c was the same... Eric83 : But not the Apple IIc. AFA Fixit : The //c+ has the same connectors as the Mac and IIgs. Eric83 : I thought so. AFL Don : Hmmm. That's a bummer, Eric. Too bad. Eric83 : :( Eric83 : Oh well. AFL Don : Mail order... Best way... Eric83 : How much would a cable be? Eric83 : $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ :O AFA Fixit : Should be under $10. Eric83 : Good. :) Eric83 : I think I'll do that. Any good Apple mail-order places you know of? AFL Don : Quality Computers, Charlie's AppleSeeds, for starters... Eric83 : Do you know the numbers for those? AFA Fixit : Try Alltech, 80-995-7773... Eric83 : OK...let me write that one down... Eric83 : Got it. AFL Don : Actually, there's a post in AHW this week that tells about a way to make your Mac read ProDos Eric83 : Really? How? AFA Fixit : Quality is 800-777-3642. AFA Fixit : Only works with 3.5" disks AFL Don : disks... You install an extension made for the LC, and the Mac'll read a ProDos disk directly... Eric83 : Oh. Eric83 : Oh, yeah...I've seen that. It comes with the LC Apple IIe card. :) AFA Fixit : Memory Plus, 602-820-8819. AFL Don : Oh, yeah, I forget that some Apples lack 3.5-inch disks... Eric83 : Ouch. No 1-800 number. Eric83 : <--- very cheap ;) AFL Don : You can always put a stamp on an envelope. AFA Fixit : You'll need to order a //c to modem cable, and a //c to ImageWriter II cable. Should run around $25 AFA Fixit : with shipping. AFL Don : Or, ask QualityCom here online, bill reps Quality Computers on AO, has answers... Eric83 : Well, if I get the IIc to modem cable, I won't bother with the ImageWriter one--I'll just send files Eric83 : via AOL. :) AFL Don : That'll make sense, unless you have a lot of them... AFA Fixit : That works as long as the files aren't too long and you aren't in a hurry. Eric83 : I've got two phone lines...I could also do it that way. :) Eric83 : Just have the Mac dial up the IIc. AFL Don : Yeah, but you have to have two modems that way... Eric83 : Oh yeah. Eric83 : Darn. Eric83 : Guess I'll get that ImageWriter II cable. Eric83 : Bummer...I used to have one before I scraped the ImageWriter II. AFL Don : Don't you have a friend who'll loan you a cable just for the transfer? Eric83 : I dunno...I'll search around. :) Eric83 : Come to think of it, yes, I do... AFL Don : Part of the fun of being cheap (me too!) is finding ways to work around the system... Eric83 : There are a lot of loopholes through AOL's system, of course, being the innocent soul that I am, would Eric83 : never use them O:) AFA Fixit : Too many years as a public school teacher Don. AFL Don : ...never! Good plan for a would-be AFC! Eric83 : I just like finding things like that, but I'm too honest to use them. :)AFL Don : Hello, Paul. Good to see you again... PaulBZ : I have a hardware question,any hardware garu's Eric83 : Yup...our very own AFA Fixit! :) AFL Don : His and hers phone lines! Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous! Eric83 : LOL! :) PaulBZ : I have an Apple Slinky? Ram card that causes strange things to happen when PaulBZ : installed AFL Don : Like? PaulBZ : If I install the card which only has 256k memory the system will boot ProDos AFL Don : I still use a RamFactor, and (as I recall) that's a Slinky knockoff. No problems at all with it... PaulBZ : and lock AFL Don : Oh, you have to format it first! PaulBZ : How can I format it if the system locks AFL Don : It can look like a disk, but it needs the boot code that formatting puts on it before you can boot int AFL Don : into it... Eric83 : Is there a C compiler for Apple IIcs? AFL Don : Use Copy2Plus, or some other utility, boot into that, then choose to format the slinky volume... AFA Fixit : But Don, the system locks up before he can do anything with it.. PaulBZ : This is on a 2e and right after ProDos loads the system locks up AFL Don : Shouldn't. Must be something wrong with card... PaulBZ : How can I check the card AFL Don : Do you have a diagnostic for the card? PaulBZ : It was bought at a flea market AFL Don : What happens when you try to do a system diagnostic when you start up the machine? PaulBZ : I don't have anything but the question is if the system locks how do you PaulBZ : run diagnostics Eric83 : I've gotta go...see ya later! :) PaulBZ : I didn't try the built in diagnostics AFL Don : If the card is good, it should work ok as a memory storage area, just not boot until formatted. PaulBZ : I was booting from a hard drive AFL Don : The built-in diagnostics'll spot a bad chip on the 80-column card, maybe it'll do the same on the AFL Don : slinky. AFL Don : Are you sure the slinky isn't overloading the power supply? AFA Fixit : I don't think so Don. The slinky card isn't in the memory map of the //e. PaulBZ : I don't think so because the system does start ProDos AFL Don : that's true, Walt... AFA Fixit : I seem to remember a configuration jumper for the amount of memory on the card. AFA Fixit : It may think it has more memory than it does. PaulBZ : I have the card in front of me and there is no place for jumpers AFL Don : Hmmm. Wonder if we have an Apple Tech Note in the AHW Library that covers the Slinky card... AFA Fixit : Let me look. AFL Don : If there's a problem with it, it's probably a bad ramchip. If you have other ramchips around, you AFL Don : might swap out the ramchips one at a time, testing it each time to see if it still locks things up.. PaulBZ : Suppose I remove all ram chips? AFA Fixit : There doesn't seem to be anything in the tech notes on the slinky card. AFL Don : That should take care of the lockup, you just won't see any extra memory... PaulBZ : Does anyone know how the memory is organized on the card? AFL Don : What program are you using with slinky? Some programs have to be configured to work with that AFL Don : kind of extra memory, you must choose the Slinky type, or it causes problems. PaulBZ : None I was just starting the system and couldn"t get into my program launcher AFL Don : ...I think you've probably discovered why the card was for sale at a flea market.. PaulBZ : If I made Basic.system the second program it won't get to it PaulBZ : A friend bought it and I inherited the try to fix it!!! AFL Don : ...sounds like a memory problem... PaulBZ : That's not a nice joke AFL Don : What version of ProDos, etc. are you using? PaulBZ : ProDos 2.03 PaulBZ : the launcher is prodesk vs 3.0 AFL Don : Hmmmm. Should be ok... AFL Don : How about scrapping the ProDesk just for a test... Could be that it isn't Slinky clean... AFL Don : What if you boot into an ordinary ProDos disk? PaulBZ : I can try booting from a floppy with just ProDos and basic.system? AFL Don : Sure! If that works, it's gotta be something related to ProDesk, or the way it's configured. PaulBZ : I'll try it and remove all the ram chips. AFL Don : If it still doesn't work, that points to the card. PaulBZ : I don't think its prodesk because that is a pretty general program and works AFA Fixit : Almost everything was aware of the slinky card. AFL Don : Try the clean boot first, before pulling the chips... PaulBZ : on anything above an enhanced 2e AFA Fixit : It could be there's a problem with the card that ProDesk can't handle cleanly. AFL Don : As I recall (dimly), AE's utility disk that they sold for years had utilities on it that were needed to manage the RamFactor properly under different hardware lineups. AFA Fixit : I do seem to remember that there were two jumpers on the card to set it up for various memory configs PaulBZ : are there any general diagnostics to check ram cards PaulBZ : I have the card right in front of me and there is no place to even solder AFL Don : AE's RamFactor tester was good, but probably wouldn't see the Apple Card. PaulBZ : jumpers let alone put them on AFA Fixit : Ok, may have it confused with another card. Can't find any docs anywhere. Maybe at work, but am too occupied with teaching this week. AFL Don : Teaching'll do that... PaulBZ : If you have anything that shows the layout of the memory banks could you PaulBZ : send E-Mail to me AFA Fixit : Try teaching a subject that's changing as you are teaching. AFA Fixit : I'm constantly having to retract statements on the following day. PaulBZ : The address to use would be pbauer@mit.edu AFL Don : ....know the feeling AFL Don : Why don't you put a post in Let's Discuss, ask if anyone has the docs on the Slinky? AFA Fixit : I'll try to remember to look it up at work. I think we have the entire Apple Service library up to '89 AFL Don : Maybe they can be persuaded to copy 'em, send 'em too you... AFA Fixit : but it may only be the Macintosh and cross family peripherals. PaulBZ : I'll try that. I posted on the Internet apple sig today AFL Don : Hmmm. I have all the Open-Apple etc. issues, but don't remember anything relevant re: the Slinky. AFL Don : Odds are it's a bad ramchip. If you have another source, you can find it by cherry picking... AFL Don : Unless, of course, it's two bad ramchips, then it's tough... PaulBZ : This is dated 1985 AII MEMORY EXPANSION PaulBZ : I have an extra 16 ram chips so I can try substitution AFL Don : The way the Slinky works, a fault in the early part would guarantee a catastrophic freeze... AFL Don : Piece of cake, then, just substitute 16 at a time, being careful not to break a leg! PaulBZ : Do you think it would freeze with no RAM chips? AFL Don : Might, I've never tried it. Probably. AFL Don : If replacing all the ramchips sequentially doesn't help, next thing I'd do is resweat all the solder AFL Don : joints on the board. I've fixed a lot of boards by getting rid of resin joints that way... AFL Don : In a board that old, a bad solder joint isn't all that unusual. AFL Don : Sometimes they can look to be perfect, but the wire doesn't connect to the solder any more. AFL Don : ...1985 wave soldered board frequently had hidden solder defects that took time to show up.. AFL Don : ....just be sure to use a low-wattage soldering tool... PaulBZ : That's kind of a last resort as there are an awful lot of joints AFL Don : All the more reason to suspect a solder joint... all it takes is one bad one. You can shotgun a board in ten minutes, but you can waste ten weeks looking for the trouble somewhere where it isn't if it's really a bad solder joint... AFA Fixit : I just checked and I've got loads of 256k RAM that you could use in that board, heh heh. PaulBZ : I could use 18 more chips. what do you want per chip? TallStuff : Hey there Frank :) AFA Fixit : 50 cents, plus shipping? BCS Frank : hardware swapping? poker? What's happening? :) AFA Fixit : Hiya Frank. AFL Don : Hello, Frank... PaulBZ : hi Frank BCS Frank : Hi, y'all :) AFL Don : Poker chips! I get it! BCS Frank : :) PaulBZ : How about $20 worth PaulBZ : Where are you located? AFA Fixit : Sounds like I should have asked for $1 each. AFA Fixit : I'm in Delaware. AFA Fixit : ;) TallStuff : Now now don't get greedy dear ;) PaulBZ : To far to drive. I'm near Frank in the Boston area. AFL Don : You could sell 'em by the pound, Walt... AFA Fixit : That's too bad, Paul. AFA Fixit : Don't have that much. Not a lot of demand for 150ns 256k chips these days. BCS Frank : It's not -that- bad, Walt... but it -is- far from Delaware. :) AFA Fixit : It's only an 8 hour drive. TallStuff : Frank you going to be at MacWorld this year?? PaulBZ : I went thru there last Dec 27 during the winter blizzard AFA Fixit : What blizzard? BCS Frank : I plan to be.... PaulBZ : Well Washington came to a halt for a couple of days. BCS Frank : Course I planned to be at the '94 Boston AppleFest too.... AFA Fixit : That doesn't mean much. They close down if the snow sticks around here. AFA Fixit : Spent two winters in North Dakota. Two winters in the Eifel mountains of Germany. Haven't seen a real AFL Don : No guarantees on the ramchip diagnosis, Paul, it's just a semi-educated guess at best... AFA Fixit : storm yet in two winters three winters here. PaulBZ : Come to Boston, we had our fill this winter BCS Frank : Hmmm... hope you continue not seeing storms here.... :) PaulBZ : I'm going to try it with all the chips removed AFA Fixit : Unimpressed by the "big" storms of the last two winters. PaulBZ : Frank we have one more yet this year. Remember 1978!!! AFA Fixit : Well, maybe one real storm... PaulBZ : and 85 BCS Frank : Heck I remember snow accumulating on the road in the Franconia Notch BCS Frank : on Bastille Day, several years back. BCS Frank : .. Course, it lasted about 2 hours. AFA Fixit : To me, if you don't have white out conditions for at least an hour, it's not a storm. AFA Fixit : ;) BCS Frank : What we really need is a version of Shrink.It that'll allow us to compact BCS Frank : and send via modem, or store on hard drive, BCS Frank : solid matter items, like chips BCS Frank : or pizza. AFL Don : Beam me up, Scotty! AFA Fixit : Don't forget the dip! BCS Frank : Yup, where's the Federation when we need 'em?! AFL Don : Well, getting late. 'nuther test to grade, gotta go... BCS Frank : Going on line then will really mean something more..... BCS Frank : Night, Don... :) AFL Don : Thanks again, all... Catchya later... BCS Frank : I'm off too.... gonna riffle through the message boards.... BCS Frank : Bye Walt, Paul, Don :) PaulBZ : See ya later AFL Don : poof... 4/25/94 8:06:32 PM Closing Log file.