4/11/94 6:25:26 PM Opening ÒChat Log 4/11/94Ó for recording. AFL Don : Hello, Clark! Superman11 : hi AFL Don : Welcome to the Apple Hardware Forum Chat, when it starts.. AFL Don : What's up? Superman11 : nothing' AFL Don : Yeah, right... Lotta that going around... AFL Don : Been with us before? I don't remember the screen-name... Superman11 : I gotta go *Goodbye* AFL Don : Bye AFC Softy : Hey Don... :D AFL Don : Hi Larry... AFC Softy : Hi Bill :) AFL Don : Hi Bill... AFC Softy : Don... I noticed... :) GSPlusBill : Hi, guys. AFL Don : Wotzup? AFL Don : What's new, since we last crossed paths? AFL Don : Hello, Frank... AFC Softy : Hi Frank! :) AFL Don : I accidentally trashed my DJ printer codes in AppleWorks, having trouble printing landscape 20 cpi spreadsheets. I used to do it, seem to have the codes ok, but it does weird things for me.. I haven't given up, but haven't solved it.. GSPlusBill : Don: I can't help with the codes (I didn't even KNOW you could use a DJ w/AW!) AFL Don : They work great! AFC Softy : Frank.. the only way it'll be a problem is if the media keeps sensationalizing AFC Softy : it as they have been. GSPlusBill : ...but backing up the codes so this doesn't happen again would be no problem. BCS Frank : Don, give Bill (QualityCom) an e-mail... he might help. AFC Softy : Bill.... AW 4.0 has DJ drivers built in.... :) AFC Softy : Before 4.0 you needed SuperPatch to have a DJ driver. GSPlusBill : Ah. (I'm waiting for Polliwogs 2.0) ;) BCS Frank : :) GSPlusBill : Speaking of QC, I got a copy of Six Pack today. Neat stuff! AFL Don : Well, I haven't really given up, haven't really tried to fix it. Did it before, I can do it again. It's just not obvious why it doesn't work right. AFC Softy : Don.... no backups to go from?? AFL Don : Yeah, but troubleshooting is fun... I don't want to spoil the challenge... AFC Softy : (or else the DJ finally realized it was hooked up to an Apple II and decided BCS Frank : Try a deliverance run? AFC Softy : it deserved better... ;) ;) AFL Don : Oh, yes, Frank, routinely... That's what caused the problem in the first place, I had to delete some corrupted files, one of 'em was SEG.PR... BCS Frank : Reinstall from back-up time, methinks. AFL Don : Gee, Frank, you sure wanta give up easy! Where's your sporting instinct? AFL Don : Actually, I do use the DeskJet with my PowerBook a lot, maybe it likes the Mac better... GSPlusBill : Deliverance? Using that is probably what started the whole mess! ;) AFL Don : Nah, Bill, that's a lifesaver... BCS Frank : Well, I've used Deliverance to haul a lot of chestnuts out of assorted fires... AFL Don : ...never fails for me BCS Frank : ... but nothing beats a full back up. AFL Don : I own AW 4.0.2, but since I don't have UM with it, can't use it, 'cause I need macros for my grading spreadsheets. BCS Frank : Hmmm... I'm still on 6.0. AFL Don : It works great for me (Deliverance) with 6.0.1... Must be something else not right... AFL Don : Got your new PB yet, Larry? GSPlusBill : Hmm...I did have a lot of problems right after getting my 240MB NCS Pro... GSPlusBill : It was formatted with Diz's LC...maybe THAT's the problem!! ;) AFL Don : Anybody hear any thing definite about TMS? I wanted to buy a new modem from 'em, but hear they're not answering the phones... BCS Frank : An Elsie? BCS Frank : sigh. AFC Softy : Hi CMXer :) AFL Don : Hello, CMX! Welcome to the Apple Hardware Forum Chat... GSPlusBill : Don: TMS is AWOL. Larry: LRO really went to bat for me when the 240 acted up. CMXer : Hi all. What's that Softy was saying about LRO. I didn't catch it. AFL Don : That's what I hear, Bill, but haven't heard the official word from the gang at TMS yet... AFL Don : I still have hopes.. AFL Don : Hello, Chuck Stites! AFL Don : Hi Walt! AFC Softy : Hey Walt! :) ChuckS1073 : Hi Don & all! BCS Frank : Walt! :) AFL Don : BTW, AFC Marvin is on his way to Munich and Auschwitz... Doing a remote broadcast from there.. GSPlusBill : Yeah, the II Alive subscription dept. can't keep up with my frequent moving. ;) AFA Fixit : Hi folks! Finally made it home. BCS Frank : Bill, give'm an Internet address. :) AFL Don : Internet is sure growing. My local newspaper is now on Internet! GSPlusBill : I haven't gotten an issue since the one where they compared AutoArk & HP. AFC Softy : Hey Walt, with Hayes AT commands, what do the &F and &W commands actually do? BCS Frank : Heck, we all here are kinda on Inet too. GSPlusBill : 'kinda' is the key word in that sentence, Frank. AFL Don : &F resets to factory parameters, &W writes the new setup string into storage... GSPlusBill : Well, I gotta git. Gotta hit the shower and go to work, then get ready to... AFC Softy : Don... is there a preference for the order they go in a command string? AFC Softy : Or does it matter? AFL Don : Hey, good to see ya again, Bill! Hurry back! AFA Fixit : That way you'll pull up Factory defaults with a reset or ATZ GSPlusBill : go to Hotlanta tomorrow and catch the Bravos home opener! (7-0!! Go Braves!) AFA Fixit : AT&W is always last BCS Frank : Have a good shift, Bill! :) AFL Don : The &W usually goes at the end... AFC Softy : Okay.... I just wanted to understand what the codes do in case I'm asked. :) BCS Frank : Just say they permagate the integrals. AFC Softy : Lord knows where my DataLink manuals are... :) GSPlusBill : Huh? ;) AFC Softy : The Braves suck... go Giants! ;) BCS Frank : ... say "They permagate the integrals." The codes, that is. AFC Softy : <-- typical Giants fan ;) AFL Don : My best source for Hayes info is the manual that came with my Practical Peripherals 2400SA... AFL Don : Reasonably accessible... GSPlusBill : Larry: Watch TBS tomorrow. I'll be sure to wave at the cameras. ;) AFA Fixit : Disappointed, Larry? GHutch : Hi everyone. CMXer : Thanks for welcoming me here. Since I'm new, I'm going to go look around more. AFL Don : Hey, George! BCS Frank : Enjoy, CMXer! :) AFL Don : Please come back, CMX! Good bunch here, every Monday night, give or take a holiday or two... GHutch : Loggin' on with the trusty 2GS tonight...PB is on the road! AFC Softy : (good thing Bill didn't say "go Dodgers". I'd be TOSsed out for the reply.:D AFC Softy : Walt... disappointed in/with what? AFL Don : Something wrong with your PowerBook, George? ChuckS1073 : ...oops...was afk...hope I didn't miss much. I hate this limited scroller. :) BCS Frank : The question of course, would be "go where?" GSPlusBill : No Larry, one thing we have in common is a loathing of LA. ;) GHutch : No my wife has it at a meeting AFA Fixit : The typical Giants fan is usually disappointed. AFC Softy : Good Bill.... :) AFL Don : They're pretty hot so far this year, Walt... AFC Softy : Uhhh... no Walt... I was very proud of them last year. GHutch : LA is a difficult place to like. AFA Fixit : Woo woo a week into the season. AFL Don : yeah, right Walt... GHutch : Hey the Twins will be big pushovers this year. AFC Softy : LA rolled over and died for the Braves the last weekend... ;) GHutch : No pitching :( AFA Fixit : LA hasn't been much of a team for years. GSPlusBill : After the years of famine, please allow me to feast on the Braves recent GSPlusBill : good fortune the past three years. ;) AFC Softy : LA forgot what having a farm system was.... theirs was probably the best in GHutch : Feast away! AFC Softy : the Majors at one time. AFC Softy : Bill... Toronto will have a feast on them again come October. ;) GSPlusBill : (Face it, Braves fans has some LEAN years! Anybody remember 88-90?) GHutch : Hey I got a hardware/software question for all you baseball fans: AFL Don : Go for it, George, that's what we're REALLY here for! AFA Fixit : The Blue Jays, the greatest team that Oakland ever fielded. ;) GSPlusBill : Nah...this time, the Braves'll do it. NOBODY beats our starting rotation. AFC Softy : Pitch it at us George... :) GHutch : How do I make the Harmonie printer drivers work over a LocalTalk network? AFL Don : You can't, they don't, not yet... Lowell says they're working on a network version, but it's RSN at best, I think... GSPlusBill : Swing, and a miss! ;) GHutch : steeeerike ooone....... GHutch : Who is Lowell? AFC Softy : Bill.... Toronto did.... twice. :D AFC Softy : Lowell = VitesseInc :) AFL Don : Lowell Erbe is the Vitesse Rep here on AO! GHutch : Ah so I can email him my concern? BCS Frank : absolutely GSPlusBill : Larry: Yes, but Toronto never faced Maddux. ;) AFL Don : Read the Vitesse area, you'll see that others precede you with your question... AFC Softy : Either that George... or post a message in their Company Support area urging GHutch : Now I looked in "industry connection" and didn't see Vitesse.. AFC Softy : them on. :) AFL Don : Your question has already been answered. But your interest may spur Vitesse on to faster progress... AFC Softy : They aren't in IC.... GSPlusBill : Well, I gotta run. Larry, I'll be back Wed. night to serve you up a big... AFA Fixit : Vitesse is in the Company Support area of AHW. AFL Don : Company Support... They're there.. GSPlusBill : ...steaming plate of crow. ;) AFC Softy : :D AFL Don : Lowell services the area quite frequently... GHutch : ok, back in a minute... ChuckS1073 : Ready for a new question, Don? GSPlusBill : Adios! AFL Don : Sock it to me! BCS Frank : 2nd pitch.... AFC Softy : afk a minute... :) ChuckS1073 : Occasionally I lose half of my 80-column -- seems to mostly happen when I... ChuckS1073 : exit AOL or my ProTerm 3.1... I am on a IIe w/Ramworks III (150n chips)... AFL Don : Do you lose every other character but stay in 80 columns, or flip to 40 columns? BCS Frank : Hmmmm 80 col. card seating? Reseat card & chips? ChuckS1073 : I also have a Zip-8...I tried slowing my Zip to 80%...The problem hasn't... ChuckS1073 : really gone away but less frequent... could it be the RamWorks or Zip... AFL Don : The 80-column handling on the Apple 2e is a little weird. Every other column is in one or the other of two different memory banks and the banks are constantly switched as you trace across the screen. ChuckS1073 : I have pulled the Ramworks and pulled each h ChuckS1073 : ...pulled each chip and reseated them... ChuckS1073 : I stay in 80 col but lose every other column. AFC Softy : bingo.... :) AFL Don : When something's wrong with the ram that services the second bank, you get a screen that looks like prison bars... Sounds like what you have... AFL Don : I'll betcha a diagnostic'll show bad ram... ChuckS1073 : Nope...I ran the Ramworks diagnostic all night... no problem showed up. AFL Don : Hmmm... the RamWorks diagnostic is usually pretty good, although not the best... AFL Don : Do you still have your old 80-column card? ChuckS1073 : I thought perhaps it could be the slower chips (150n)...? AFL Don : If so, does it work ok? AFL Don : 150ns chips are fine for a //e... ChuckS1073 : I still have the old card. AFC Softy : Does it happen only when you sign off from AOL or other BBBs? ChuckS1073 : I haven't tried to swap it out. I'll give it a try... AFL Don : Try the old card. If you still have the problem, it's definitely not the RamWorks... AFC Softy : Don... but with an 8Mhz Zip installed? AFC Softy : Oh.. wait.... ChuckS1073 : Softy: Both front/end programs, and sometimes with my AWKS4.x. AFL Don : There are problems with the 80-column card when a program doesn't quit gracefully... AFL Don : You can quit 80-columns in a way that causes great grief. ChuckS1073 : Yup, I know that, sometimes they really screw up the screen... ChuckS1073 : The only way I can get my 80 col back is to do a "cold boot". :( AFL Don : There's a code sequence that turns off the card properly, when going to 40 columns, but without looking it up I can't remember what it is for sure... AFC Softy : I'm trying to remember if there wasn't a keypress combination that gave you the AFC Softy : same thing?? AFL Don : I think it's esc ctrl Q 4 ChuckS1073 : Yup, I think it is ESC Ctrl-Q. Right? ChuckS1073 : er...not 4 "?" AFA Fixit : I thought a simple PR#3 would do. AFL Don : I think so. The card has to be initialized properly to work right. esc 4 gives you 40 columns, esc 8 gives you 80 AFC Softy : "Esc 4" and "Esc 8" switch it back and forth but leave the 80 column firmware turned on. ChuckS1073 : With my ProTerm I double checked that it restored my RAM... AFL Don : The problem is in quitting 80 columns, not in initializing it. Maybe the software you're quitting is somehow turning off the card inappropriately... AFL Don : Hi Fred! AFL Don : Hello, Kate! AFC Softy : Hi Fred :) TallStuff : Hi there Don :) AFC Softy : {{{Beckster}}}} :* :) Fred SoCal : Hi Don, Hi Kate :) BCS Frank : Kate :) ChuckS1073 : You can use Esc 4 or 8 if you already have the firmware already switched on. TallStuff : {{{{Larryster}}}}}** Fred SoCal : Hi Softy AFL Don : Anyway, if the RamWorks diagnostic gives the AE card a clean bill, I'll bet the problem isn't the Ram TallStuff : Hiya Fred :) Frank :) Fred SoCal : oops, Softy TallStuff : afk brb AFC Softy : <-- quit trying to keep up with all of TS's names so he stuck to the first one AFC Softy : he ever knew. ;) ChuckS1073 : Wow, Are my feathers ruffled?!?!? :) AFL Don : Oh? ChuckS1073 : I hate it when THOR strikes me :) ChuckS1073 : Where were we before Ma Bell struck? Fred SoCal : .... ? what's a RW, Don? AFL Don : RamWorks, Fred... AFL Don : It's an old Applied Engineering card that replaced the 80-column card in a //e, added extra memory, up to 1 megabyte. TallStuff : lol Larry!!!! Fred SoCal : That's only for a IIe or previous, right? AFL Don : Only for a //e period... AFL Don : Last version sold was the RamWorks III, as I recall. AFC Softy : RamWorks was for IIe only.... you confused it with the RamFactor. Fred SoCal : Almost got one of those but upgraded to a GS instead. TallStuff : well I'm off... see ya'll later ;) ChuckS1073 : Oh, I remember. I mentioned that sometimes I could only reinitiate if I did a "cold boot". For example, just now after Ma did her thing to me... AFC Softy : Seeya Beckers... :* AFL Don : I run both a RamWorks and a RamFactor on the //e that supports my BBS... ChuckS1073 : I lost my 80 col again and had to reboot....hmmm maybe it wasn't Ma Bell.? AFA Fixit : The Apple IIe hardware reference lists ESC-Control-Q to switch to 40 column display. AFC Softy : There was another 80 column board for pre IIe's.... can't AFC Softy : think of it off hand tho. :/ ChuckS1073 : Softly: I think Mountain had one... AFL Don : Yes, Larry, at least one... I can't think of the name either... GHutch : Hello again, I just posted a message and emailed Lowell with words of encourage GHutch : ment ChuckS1073 : In fact I think I have one laying around somewhere. AFC Softy : One of them was known as the "Pocket Rocket". AFL Don : Ah yes, good old Mountain Hardware! GHutch : Hope it moves 'em a bit further along. AFL Don : ....sounds like Tool Time! AFA Fixit : ESC control-R for 80 column text. ChuckS1073 : ...(I still have a Mountain clock card... collector's item :) ...) GHutch : Andre Richard (Canadians) was the "pocket rocket" AFA Fixit : That's if the 80 column firmware is active. BCS Frank : ... brb... AFC Softy : Walt... there were some commands that left the card active when going to 40 columns. Fred SoCal : I saw a "Pocket Rocket" with only 48K (I think) on sale recently. ChuckS1073 : Could there be an intermittent chip on my RW that only sometimes gets triggered ChuckS1073 : into acting up? AFC Softy : Possible.... AFL Don : That's a possibility. ChuckS1073 : However, if it is a DRAM, it shouldn't really affect the 80 col, should it? AFL Don : But you'll be on the road to ruling out the RW if you substitute your old 80-column card for a test... AFC Softy : What Don said... :) ChuckS1073 : Hold on ... let me pull it.... AFL Don : Some of the DRAM adds the memory for the 128k needed for the screen... ChuckS1073 : ...Only joking... :) AFL Don : Turn off your computer! ChuckS1073 : heheheh AFC Softy : As long as you have the other card.. might as well start ruling out the AFL Don : zappppp AFC Softy : possibilities. :) ChuckS1073 : zzzzzziiiiinnnnnnggggg!!!!!! GHutch : Chuck you doin' surgery on a woke up patient...tain't ethical you know.. :) ChuckS1073 : :) AFL Don : ...except for brain surgery GHutch : yes Dave ChuckS1073 : Ok, how about a software question? AFC Softy : If the patient is "brain dead" it won't make a difference. ;) ChuckS1073 : :) AFL Don : Shall we all change hats AFL Don : ? AFL Don : Hello, Paul AFC Softy : Hi Paul... :) GHutch : if the tree falls in the forest... ChuckS1073 : Hi Paul AFL Don : Welcome to the Apple Hardware Forum Chat! Fred SoCal : Hi Paul :) AFC Softy : Wot's da software question? PaulBZ : Hi all What's happening? ChuckS1073 : Has anyone checked into possible bugs in Basic.System 1.5? AFL Don : Just waiting for you to join us? AFL Don : Lotsa users using it, with no reports of difficulties.. AFC Softy : Which P8 version is 1.5 from? AFL Don : ...that I've heard about, anyway... ChuckS1073 : I think I found a couple, and Tim Kellers ( met him on GEnie) also found one... AFL Don : Oh? ChuckS1073 : of the two. So far, I can't find any answers. AFL Don : Tell us more? ChuckS1073 : 1.4 came out w/GS 6.0 and 1.5 is with the latest. AFC Softy : What are the bugs?? ChuckS1073 : I rewrote some software for a company a while back... ChuckS1073 : I discovered that when I tried to use 1.5 with their Basic programs... ChuckS1073 : whenever Basic read a txt file and displayed on the screen in inverse... ChuckS1073 : it would print garbage (all letters were CAPS)...also GHutch : Well, I gotta use the phone to call my dad (birthday) so G'night all... ChuckS1073 : on two of their programs I consistently would get out of memory errors... GHutch : and thanks for the info on Vitesse. Fred SoCal : By Hutch AFL Don : G'Nite, George! wish your dad HB for us, too! ChuckS1073 : 1.4.1 gave no problems. Strange? GHutch : will do! ChuckS1073 : The programs were originally written with 1.3 (Basic.System that is) AFL Don : That's weird, Chuck... Thought Basic.System 1.5 was supposed to clean up bugs... ChuckS1073 : According to all the docs I could find, I thought so too. AFL Don : I'll see if I can replicate the problem when I get a chance. AFC Softy : They might have hatched a few more tho... :) ChuckS1073 : Now, I remember reading that they did something to the aux (?) number? or... AFC Softy : Hi Dave :D ChuckS1073 : something like that...for txt and bin files. SUPRDAVE : anyone want to answer question about the ][+? AFL Don : Hmmm.. Wonder if there's a Tech Note on Basic.System in the AHW From Apple section here... Fred SoCal : Is there any chance you broke some rule that BS 1.3 and 1.4 did not catch and AFA Fixit : Not really, but blast away Dave AFL Don : We'll try, Dave... Fred SoCal : 1.5 did. ( just a friendly question) ChuckS1073 : That's where I got the only reference to 1.5. :) SUPRDAVE : stand by while i type :D ChuckS1073 : Fred: I have no idea. Even the original programs wouldn't work properly... SUPRDAVE : when you first turn on a ][+, the screen fills with garbage for a second, the computer beeps, then... ChuckS1073 : I wonder if they originally used some "forbidden" memory locations.... AFC Softy : Don... P8 Technote #24 has the revision history. SUPRDAVE : it will clear and the screen says 'apple ][" and the drive comes on (normal) AFC Softy : (through v1.5) ChuckS1073 : It was a real bear to work on. They didn't have any clean listings of any... AFL Don : Chuck, you might write a little program that prints out all the 256 ASCII codes under basic. ChuckS1073 : of their programs...All were hidden...early eof termination. AFL Don : For I=0 to 255: Print Chr$(I): Next AFL Don : See what happens. ChuckS1073 : Softly: that is the one I have. SUPRDAVE : now sometimes when I turn mine on, the screen full of garbage stays, the computer never beeps and... AFA Fixit : and.... SUPRDAVE : the drive never comes on, does that mean the autostart rom may be going bad? AFA Fixit : May just need to reseat the socketed chips on the boards. ChuckS1073 : Don, I already did that...I saved a txt file (all caps) and tried to duplicate BCS Frank : Hi, Paul :) SUPRDAVE : I've done that ChuckS1073 : what they did...no luck...Also the out of memory thing really bugged me. AFL Don : My first guess, Dave. It's not getting through the bootstrap events, I think... SUPRDAVE : This does not happen often thank goodness ChuckS1073 : Thanks, I'll keep plugging. Fred SoCal : Hi Frank, :) ChuckS1073 : Hi Frank. AFL Don : Supporting all 256 ASCII codes is so fundamental, and so important to so many programs, that it's hard to believe they could have missed a problem like that... BCS Frank : Fred, Chuck, Hi :) Multiplexing here too. ChuckS1073 : BTW, think AOL will ever get the d/l thermometer to work?? :) AFC Softy : Chuck.... is this in 80 column mode... or 40? Or both?? BCS Frank : Chuck, I think that's history.... AFL Don : ...don't know, Chuck, but it's inconvenient without it... ChuckS1073 : Softly: Always 80 col. BCS Frank : Someday we'll sign onto AOL and download, just to show our Grandchildren Fred SoCal : Aha, I thought it was my AOL copy that was doing the "no thermo" thing on DL. BCS Frank : the thermometer... and we'll tell 'em how it really used to move. AFL Don : Hmmm. 80 columns. Maybe we're talking about your first problem again, Chuck! AFC Softy : Hmmm.... I wonder if Basic.System kicked up a quirk in the 80-column firmware? AFL Don : ...or maybe Basic.System 1.5 is incompatible with something AE did on the RamWorks 80-column card! AFC Softy : As I recall there are a couple of things you absolutely positively cannot do AFC Softy : in 80 column mode. ChuckS1073 : Btw, I have since scrapped 1.5 for my own use...I have gone back to 1.4.1.... ChuckS1073 : but I still lose my 80 col...but not consistently. AFA Fixit : Well, if it's something AE did, it will never be fixed now. ChuckS1073 : I already tried pulling my ZIP... really hated snailing along...no change. ChuckS1073 : :( ChuckS1073 : At one time they were really terrific to have around. AFL Don : You did, of course, pull the RamWorks, then reseat it... ChuckS1073 : Every chip. AFL Don : Yeah, I was a big AE booster... AFC Softy : the RamWorks works fine with a Zipped IIe... I know someone who has this AFC Softy : setup. :) ChuckS1073 : Soft: Are they using the standard 150ns chips or did they go to the 120 or 100? AFC Softy : But I *think* the Zip is the older 4Mhz version. AFL Don : ...think the 150ns chips worked ok with the TransWarps AFC Softy : 150's.... as I recall AE said you can't use any other speed rating than 150s. AFC Softy : in the RamWorks. ChuckS1073 : Hmm...wonder if there might be a small bug in the Zip. After all it is an early ChuckS1073 : one.... ChuckS1073 : Now, a couple of people suggested I might switch to the 120 that they would AFC Softy : Even though 120's or 100s SHOULD work.... they don't. ChuckS1073 : do no harm. AFL Don : ...thought you said you had the problem with the ZIP out AFC Softy : Chuck... it's not the Zip if the problem persists without it. ChuckS1073 : I did, --- forgot about that --- new name is now DUMMY :) AFL Don : If you're passing the RamWorks test with the 150ns chips, there's not much point in replacing 'em. ChuckS1073 : I'm running a platinum IIe, however I have done a lot of card switching, etc... Fred SoCal : How could a faster ram chip cause problems, especially if they're all the same ChuckS1073 : possibility of a break in the mb? AFL Don : Faster won't cause a problem, but a too-slow chip can if the data rate is high... ChuckS1073 : ...MURPHY'S LAW... ? AFL Don : Not the case here... AFC Softy : Fred... I dunno... I'm just repeating what the AE techs told the person who has AFL Don : If it's a break in a trace, you should be able to induce the trouble with push using an insulated ChuckS1073 : But, Don, doesn't the Zip-8 cause a faster date rate? AFL Don : piece of plastic. AFC Softy : a IIe similar to Chuck's. Fred SoCal : I understand that, Don, but Softy said the 120s and 100 did NOT work. ChuckS1073 : er...not date but data... AFL Don : they should have... maybe it's something to do with CAS before RAS, although I thought that was only a 2GS problem. BCS Frank : Methinks CAS fore RAS was the IIes too. AFA Fixit : I've heard of some Intel based systems that fail on RAM that is too fast. AFL Don : ...I suppose with a noisy bus, they could toggle on noise where a slower chip wouldn't notice. ChuckS1073 : Out of curiosity, anyone know what 256 drams are going for now? PaulBZ : I'm using 150 ns chips in an 8megaHertz 2e with out any problems AFL Don : Maybe that's the answer then, Frank... AFC Softy : They're all CAS>RAS chips Don... AE just recommended people stick to the 150s. ChuckS1073 : Frank: yup..."e" is CAS before RAS. AFL Don : Jelly beans, Chuck. Fred SoCal : Hmmm.... that makes sense, Don. ChuckS1073 : AllTech? ChuckS1073 : Softly: But that was before the ZIP came out. ChuckS1073 : AE's recommendation, that is. AFL Don : AE wanted us to buy all chips from them, as I recall.. ChuckS1073 : :) PaulBZ : Any good source for 1 Meg by 1 ram chips for a GS ram+ card? Fred SoCal : <--- is digging out a mag with an AllTech ad in it.... AFL Don : Quality Computers, for one. Also, how about Charlie's Apple Seeds? AFC Softy : Those Don.... and Alltech.... The Chip Merchant (San Diego)... AFA Fixit : I have loads of 256k chips. No 1-Mb chips that I can see. AFL Don : I've heard from satisfied users of The Chip Merchant, too... ChuckS1073 : Am I stupid. I have my new II Alive here...They don't show speed. ChuckS1073 : ...looks like $24.00 across the board for sets of 8. AFA Fixit : That's odd. RAM refresh speed is rather important. AFC Softy : Ack... time to cut out.... I'll catch you all next week :) ChuckS1073 : Thanks Softly! :) AFC Softy : BCS Frank : Bye Larry :) Fred SoCal : By Softy AFL Don : Good to see ya, as usually, Larry! AFA Fixit : Could be that they're all plenty fast enough for the market they're advertising for. ChuckS1073 : Probably 150's. BCS Frank : AFA Fixit : Hard to find RAM slower than 100ns these days. ChuckS1073 : Boy, do I!!!!!!! ChuckS1073 : Right after the US put the "embargo" on far east chips... AFL Don : Well, gang, I've gotta cut out... test to grade, post, before I sleep... ChuckS1073 : I had 3 256K chips on my RWIII go bad...only source was the local Apple ChuckS1073 : shop...They charged me $43.00 apiece! Fred SoCal : Sounds familiar Don, same here. Bye all. :) AFL Don : Aha, you mean your RW is populated with chips not all of same parentage? BCS Frank : ... plus tax. :( ChuckS1073 : Night Fred. ChuckS1073 : Frank... :) AFL Don : Nite, Fred! PaulBZ : Night all AFA Fixit : $43 for $.50 parts? AFA Fixit : When was this? BCS Frank : Bye Paul, Fred :) AFL Don : That was then and now it's now, Walt... ChuckS1073 : Uh-huh. About '89, I think? BCS Frank : <> ChuckS1073 : Right now they want $130 for a set of 8-120N 256K chips...hehehe AFL Don : ...about '89 I paid $900+ for a GS-Ram+ with 2 megs... AFL Don : ....sob AFA Fixit : Still about 10x the going price. ChuckS1073 : I originally paid around $700 for my RW III. ChuckS1073 : Well, we all know about local Apple Dealers :) AFA Fixit : Where do you live? Tokyo? ChuckS1073 : ...the last place to ever go for advice... :) ChuckS1073 : Me?...Daytona Beach. ChuckS1073 : FL, that is. ChuckS1073 : Btw, they did lose their Apple Exclusive Franchise... :):):):) AFA Fixit : Can't believe $700 for a RamWorks III AFL Don : I can... A few years ago, if you wanted one you paid that for them... Or did without... ChuckS1073 : I think I got it in ......... '85 or '86.... ChuckS1073 : Do true, Don. ChuckS1073 : er...So true, Don. AFA Fixit : I guess that's why I always bought somebody else's RAM card. ChuckS1073 : :) AFA Fixit : Never bought a card with more than 256k for my //e. AFL Don : ...not sure of the year, but... Mostly it was chip prices during the artificially-induced shortage. AFA Fixit : Which one? ChuckS1073 : With my AWKS 4.02 I wish I had 2 Meg. ChuckS1073 : Yeh, Don, it has always been the price of the chips. AFL Don : My 6 megs is nice, although more than I really need. ChuckS1073 : Don, that's on a gs, right? AFL Don : Yes, right... ChuckS1073 : I missed a chance to get the piggy-backs at one time for a song. BCS Frank : I'm telling folks go 1 Meg on an e and 4 on a gs.... be done BCS Frank : with memory limits before prices go up again. AFL Don : That's about right, Frank ChuckS1073 : Do I kick myself now. AFA Fixit : Well, I've got to get some sleep. Night folks. ChuckS1073 : I'm saving my pennies now to get a gs. AFL Don : I hear the dollar may rise against the yen, maybe we'll have some better prices on DRAM if they aren't BCS Frank : Was asked the other day by a school with about 20 64K IIes... could they AFL Don : embargoed somehow. AFA Fixit : Doesn't take that many pennies these days. BCS Frank : upgrade each IIe by 32K? AFA Fixit : 32K? where in the heck did they come up with that? AFL Don : Half the second bank on the 80-column card? ChuckS1073 : Don't think so...Don't you have to first, nowadays, got to the 128K w/80 col? BCS Frank : Well, they wanted to keep every machine equal, and not spend much money. AFL Don : That'll keep 'em equal, none of 'em will work! AFA Fixit : You can go to 80 Mb if you get the old non-extended 80 column card. BCS Frank : So maybe in a year or two two could get them all up to 128K. ChuckS1073 : Just get 80 col cards w/the other 64k on it. BCS Frank : I told them fiddlesticks... ChuckS1073 : The extended cards are almost dirt cheap now. AFA Fixit : Well, I'm off. BCS Frank : make some machines power stations... 1 Meg, etc... ChuckS1073 : Nite Mr Fixit AFL Don : Yeah, me too... Been great! BCS Frank : and bring up th rest later. AFL Don : See ya all next week? BCS Frank : Bye Walt, Don, Chuck. :) ChuckS1073 : Sure, thanks again Don. AFL Don : :) 4/11/94 8:16:13 PM Closing Log file.