APPLE II GRAPHICS & SOUND FORUM CONFERENCE LOG January 29, 1993 10:00 P.M. Topic: The TurboRez GS board Forum Leader: W. Scott Gentry (AFL Scott) Edited by: Ted O'Hara (AFC Ted) Copyright (c) 1993 America Online, Inc. and Excellent Software, Inc. All Rights Reserved ================================================================== AFC DaveS Welcome to AGS! We'll be starting in a few minutes. AFC Ted Welcome to the Apple II Graphic and Sound Forum :) AFC DaveS Tonight's topic is TurboRez GS. AFC DaveS AFL Scott got called away on a company emergency, so we'll be covering for him. AFC DaveS Ted, do you know if Bill St. Pierre will be here? AFC Ted I'm not sure. I thought he was, but now that you mention it, I'm not sure AFC DaveS Kermit, if you have any questions about Apple II Graphics or Sound, feel free to bring them up! The Sound half of the staff aren't here right now, but we can try :) AFC DaveS Tonight's topic is the TurboRez GS! KermitL I'm new, What's TurboRez GS? AFC SteveB }:> AFC DaveS TurboRez GS is a video expansion board for the IIGS. AFC Ted OK, the Turbo Rez is a graphic enhancement board AFC DaveS It will allow you to have more colors on the screen. KermitL Oh-Oh, Sounds expensive! AFC Ted It allows the 320 mode to use up to 256 colors ....on any line AFC DaveS I think the price was around $300. AFC DaveS You can choose out of a possible 262,144 colors, as the board uses a VGA-style chipset for some functions. AFC Ted We saw an early version at the Apple Expo in Boston, and it looked really neat AFC DaveS There have been rumors that Bill is working on enhancing the 640x200 mode for more colors. AFC DaveS It has built in scrolling capability. AFC Tosh Several applications are also under development for the board... Paint program, GIF viewer....and there are other programs which may take advantage of the board. AFC Ted BTW..one of the resasons the vertical rez is still 200 pixels is because it still uses your normal GS monitor...you don't have to buy a new one. AFC DaveS The TurboRez will come with some applications... We've heard of a Paint program that will take advantage of the color capabilities of the board. AFC DaveS There is also a GIF converter. AFC Ted The GIF viewer they showed at the Expo was really neat... smooth scrolling, great color. AFC DaveS Mike Lutynski's 3D modelling and animation package will also support the TurboRez! AFC Ted (Animasia 3-D) AFA Andy What was the GIF Viewer? AFC DaveS Probably something called TurboGIF...was there a name? AFC Ted I don't think it had any particular name, Andy AFA Andy Who is writing, Ted? AFA Andy Oh, Bill. FredW GS Is TurboRez shipping? AFA Andy I thought it was something else. AFC DaveS No, not yet. AFC Ted It's not shipping yet, but it's still on track AFC DaveS There is a log with Bill here in our libraries, at the last TurboRez chat. If you want information on the board, that's a good place to start. FredW GS Hmmm, may be difficult to discuss it ?? AFC DaveS Yeah...I think it will be a little difficult :) AFC Tosh If Dangardace shows up, he may have some info. AFC Ted We can discuss anything! Just not definitively :) AFC DaveS If you have any other graphics questions, feel free to pop 'em :) FredW GS Have they said whether the board will be have NTSC or not?? AFC Ted I won't swear to it Fred, but I think it does. AFC DaveS There was no mention of an NTSC output at the last conference. AFC DaveS Wasn't that something Bill was working on? AFC Tosh Why Fred? Recording? FredW GS I will be frank...I do not think I will buy the board for the price that has been tossed around...who here will? AFC DaveS For 300 bucks? AFA Andy I'm still looking for a job. AFC DaveS Probably not me. FredW GS Output to TV and tape would be nice Tosh. AFC Tosh I Imagine I would.....if the final pictures can be used in some way...other than just viewing on the GS. :) AFC Tosh Which would make the NTSC a valuable thing. AFC DaveS I wonder what Roger Wagner thinks of the board. FredW GS Perhaps if it also genlocked or did something else...but it's just a little too pricey for a low-end VGA board for me. AFC DaveS 300 bucks for good NTSC would be pretty cheap. Sheppy I'd gladly beat somebody upside the head for one. :) AFC DaveS Good point, Fred. AFC Ted :) Sheppy Anybody need someone's head beat upside of? ;) AFA Andy If someone wanted to give me I wouldn't turn it down. AFC Ted Fred, in your opinion, what would be a good price for it? AFC DaveS Rumor of 256 colors in 640x200 AFA Andy But unless I find a job soon I will not be buying much of anything for a while AFC DaveS Board is still a go, BTW. GNO Jawaid Yeah, I heard about that. I will go spastic if that's true! FredW GS I agree, Its a nice product...but its too $$$/performance for me. FredW GS OK...last pessimistic word out of me. FredW GS :) AFA Andy So what would a good price be, Fred? AFC DaveS You could get quite a bit for $300 if you have more than one computer. AFC DaveS Anyone know if any developer boards have gone out? AFC DaveS You get one, Jawaid? FredW GS For 640x200x256...Hmmm, $150 maybe, expensive for a pc product but about right for a GS. AFA Andy I'm just curious, I have no idea about hardware stuff. GNO Jawaid Nope.. but rumor has it some boards are indeed in developer hands. AFC DaveS You can get a Diamond Speedstar 24X for about $150 on the PC...it's a steal. FredW GS True Dave...I was being generous. AFC Ted I know Steve Chiang was angling to get one, but I don't know whether he got one though. AFC DaveS The TurboRez is about in that category, relative to the IIGS market. I'd say a better price would be under 200. $199 or so would sound better. AFC Tosh Bill can't count on the kind of volume there is in the PC market. The price you pay for using a "fringe" machine. :) FredW GS But then I just bought a TWGS so what do I know :) AFC DaveS Fred :) AFC DaveS An excellent point, Don. AFC Ted Pricing is always difficult...price too low, and you don't get your money back AFC DaveS Score: Fred 1 Don 1 AFC Ted Price too high, and people don't buy, so you don't get your money back.... Sheppy Price too high and you don't get your money back. Catch-22. FredW GS :) GNO Jawaid Nah, basic economics. :-) AFC DaveS You could look at the TurboRez more as a package than a piece of hardware. AFC Ted right :) Sheppy Sounds like the story of Goldilocks and the three bears. :) Sheppy This one's priced too high... Sheppy ...this one's priced too low... Sheppy ...this one's _just_ right! :) AFC DaveS If it's indeed bundled with a paint program, a GIF converter, and who knows what else, maybe it will be more appealing. AFC DaveS A bundle with Animasia would be more tempting! GNO Jawaid Ahh, but you need a DSP for Animasia too :-) AFC Ted I believe the software (but not Animasia) is bundled with it since it won't do anything for existing software FredW GS If the res is 640x200 there will bw NTSC for it. Sheppy I think bundling some kind of game would attract a few people to it. AFC DaveS Jawaid: Or a good book to read :) FredW GS Either from them or from me if anyone wants to spend 3-4 hrs with a soldering gun. AFA Andy I do think there is someone working on a game for it. But it's just rumor. AFC DaveS Including a game would be useful. GNO Jawaid I already know what I'm gonna do with it. :-) AFC DaveS Interesting, I mean. FredW GS What Jawaid?? Sheppy A game would show the whiz-bang side of things better than a paint program. GNO Jawaid (assuming I can DMA scroll certain regions) AFC DaveS I bet Steve will try to port Street Fighter II to it in some form :) AFC Ted :) GNO Jawaid I'm going to make an awesome X-Windows like system for GNO. :-) Sheppy Yeah, right. FredW GS When you got the original...ports are lame :) AFC DaveS Jawaid: With 640x200, you mean X-Window :) AFC DaveS You've got a motherboard, Fred? GNO Jawaid Well, yeah. :-) With a shrink-to-icon feature of course :-) AFC DaveS Heh :) FredW GS Doesn't X take a lot of MEGS and rez and MHz?? GNO Jawaid I said X-like, not X. :-) AFC DaveS Do you think Procyon will support TurboRez for its games? FredW GS Yep Dave :) Sheppy He said X _like_ :) GNO Jawaid That's a loaded question, Dave. :-) AFC DaveS Maybe a TR version of Pick 'n Pile? AFC DaveS hey, I'm just trying to keep the conversation interesting :) FredW GS And an awesome game system to play it on:) AFA Andy Dave :D AFC DaveS Fred: I think I remember you trying to sell it last summer :) FredW GS :) Its not doing badly...but we're going to have to advertise someday... AFC DaveS Having 320x200x256 colors would be nice on the IIGS. FredW GS if we want to get serious. AFC DaveS 320x200x256 colors, and 640x200x16 pure colors, with built-in smooth scrolling. FredW GS Do they have overlay depth?? AFC Ted It also allows page flipping, for animation Barnabas How much page flipping? GNO Jawaid Three pages, I think. Barnabas Wow! All of 768 bytes! AFC Ted That's right Barnabas :) AFC DaveS It's supposed to support on-board blits, too. AFC Ted 192K of display RAM GNO Jawaid Ahh, okay. Onboard blits are cool. That's exactly what I need. AFC DaveS Heh :) AFA Andy Gee I wish I knew what you guys were talking about ;) AFC DaveS Someone's been programming 6502 for a while :) AFC Tosh The scrolling is seamless. AFC DaveS That means it is without seam :) AFC SteveB Lacking a seam? :) AFC DaveS Unseamly? :) AFC Ted Seems, to Steve AFC Tosh Seamingly. Barnabas So... when do we get the board? AFC DaveS I wonder how fast you can scroll the board? GNO Jawaid Depends. How much damage do you mind being done? AFC DaveS No word on that, Barnabas, other than Bill is still planning to go through with it. AFC SteveB Dave... I took one and chucked it clear over my house... pretty fast! ;) Barnabas Hmmm. So there's nothing new since the last TurboRez conf.? GNO Jawaid Various rumors. AFC DaveS That's no feat...dog houses aren't more than three feet high :))) AFA Andy Dave :) AFC Ted Not much new, aside from the fact that it's still on track AFC SteveB Ouch. AFC Ted One of the things they're working on is a toolset to allow developers to write for it GNO Jawaid Yes. AFC Ted Some THR specs... AFC Ted 320x 200 w 256 colors AFC Ted 640 x 200 w, 16 colors, (and you can dither to get more, ala normal SHR FredW GS What is the palette to draw from? AFC Ted Mixed 320 and 640 mode pixels on a line AFC DaveS Ah. GNO Jawaid Oh, _that's_ what he does with the extra bit. AFC DaveS The palette is 262,144 colors. AFC Ted 1/4 million colors AFA Andy I have a 3200 that has 320 and 640 mode in it. AFA Andy It looks cool. AFC DaveS Neat! AFC Ted True overscan (full screen and Horizontal only FredW GS 6 bit RGB then. AFC DaveS Exactly, Fred. AFC DaveS The palettes are apparently stored at the beginning of the framebuffer. GNO Jawaid Too bad he didn't go for 32K truecolor.. AFC Ted Auto palette (sorta like 3200 mode in SHR) allows up to 7600 colors on screen AFC DaveS Maybe he'll have a DAC upgrade someday. AFC Ted If I recall correctly from the last conference, it's done partly in hardware and partly in software, and don't ask me the details cuz I don't remember them :) Charmarose Has anyone made a demo with TurboRez? AFC DaveS Ted: That's right. GNO Jawaid Who could run it? :-) AFC DaveS Charma: Only Bill...there were some demos at Apple Expo. AFC Tosh If the board becomes a reality....people are going to want a way to input full color images for the board to use....ala color scanning. AFC DaveS I recall that autocolor mode worked by replacing up to about 40 colors in the palette during HBLANK. AFC Ted Hi speed (8 mhz) memory fill GNO Jawaid What's wrong with Allison? All hail Allison! AFC Tosh Could create a market for some other companies. AFC DaveS So you couldn't have 256 entirely different colors from line to line+1. AFC DaveS Allison is a go, as far as we know. AFC DaveS It promises to be cool! Wish I had a Visionary. Barnabas Someone please explain to me what precisely Allison is... details, bitte. GNO Jawaid It's imaging software that Scott wrote for the Visionary. Charmarose I called AllTECH and was told that in 2 weeks, they would have the updated version along with the new updated Allison, does this sound that it will be ready in 2 weeks? AFC DaveS Allison is the photo capture/ manipulation software that comes with the Visionary...now the Enhanced AST Vision Plus. AFC Tosh Maybe Allison could expand into Color Scanner software too. :) AFA Andy Alltech is upgrading the card and Scott is upgrading the software. GNO Jawaid It ought to be easy, since Allison already stores 24-bit images. FredW GS Computereyes can do that resolution as well. AFC Tosh :) AFC Ted Charmarose....probably... AFC DaveS Charma: I believe that they may be talking about just the updated firmware that will allow Allison 2.0 to digitize at 30 fps (80x60 window). AFC Ted If I recall Scott correctly, all he has to do is update Allison just a bit to recognize the new firmware. Then, later, will be a full blown new version Charmarose I also called LRO and was told that they were trying to get more in 2 months. AFC DaveS I wouldn't go with LRO... Barnabas Afraid I don't follow hardware much... anybody here got specs for this Digitizer just off the top of their head? FredW GS Computereyes will do TurboRez resolution, do you have that Dave? Charmarose So, if I can get a board from Alltech in 2 weeks, I should do that? AFC DaveS I don't have any digitizers, Fred. GNO Jawaid Hmm... so is TurboRez still limited to 640x200 & 320x200? AFC Ted That would be the better course, I think, Charmarose AFC DaveS Charma: It will be a while until 2.0 comes out, so you probably could get it from Alltech and upgrade later. Make sure you can. Barnabas LRO = Last Resort Outfit AFA Andy :) AFC Tosh Stay in touch with Alltech....I wouldn't get involved with LRO. AFC DaveS Heh :) FredW GS So I've heard Jawaid. Charmarose I know that I had problems with LRO in trying to HyperCard GS AFC DaveS Jawaid: A yup AFC Ted I think the 200 vertical resolution is a deliberate decision, so the buyer won't have to buy a new monitor to use the thing GNO Jawaid Bummer. :-( GNO Jawaid It'd be nice to have that an option, though. Hmm. FredW GS Correct...but it could have been larger than 200. AFC DaveS I wonder if Bill's design will allow him to use a different dot clock and timing to get higher rez without changing a lot of parts. Charmarose So what is different about TurboRez that can't be found in Apple VOC, the Visionary and Quickie? AFC Ted Yeah, maybe so, but it would add cost to all of the cards AFC DaveS The Apple VOC doesn't do 256 colors from 262,144. AFC Ted Two entirely different things, Charma. The VOC is used to lay GS graphics on top of video. The TurbRez is used to display enhanced computer graphics FredW GS Even if you used a TV you could get 525 interlaced. AFC DaveS Barnabas: The Enhanced AST Vision Plus is a frame grabber...takes 1/15th of a second to grab color, or black and white at 1/30 (or is it 1/60?) FredW GS What do you want to know about it Barnabas?? FredW GS 1/30 Barnabas Hard specs. Price. Capabilities. FredW GS It digitizes in 12 bit color (same as GS's palette.) AFC DaveS Give Alltech a call and spit in their ear...they'll have some numbers for you. AFC Tosh ...And the Quickie is a black and white hand scanner. AFC DaveS The Allison software has some of the most impressive output I've seen on the IIGS. Charmarose So, TurboRez is still a go, but hasn't sold yet? AFC Ted That's right, Charma. It's still in development AFC DaveS Charma: The important thing is that Bill didn't cancel the project. Charmarose Is he thinking about canceling? AFC DaveS Apparently, enough interest has been shown in the product that RezTek feels they can go ahead with it. At Apple Expo, Bill wasn't sure if he would be able to do it. AFC Ted It's sort of like the Jay Leno press conference where he said the big news was that he didn't get fired :) AFC DaveS As in successfully market it without losing his shirt. AFC DaveS Heh :) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: General Q & A/Information/Apple Expo Graphics News Subj: TurboBits 92-10-05 09:53:56 EST From: DangardAce Posted on: America Online Having worked in the RezTek booth as an official support dude, and now possessing one of these little beauts, lemme do a quick synopsis of the spiel at the show: TurboRez basically gives you VGA capability on a IIGS. 320 * 200 resolution, with 256 colors per line out of a total palette of 262,144 colors, and 16 PURE colors in 640 *200 mode, along with a third mode in which 320 and 640 mode pixels can be displayed on the same line, with 192 colors available for the 320 pixels and 8 for the 640 pixels. TurboRez gives you three pages of hardware page flipping and also allows you to do overscan (like the FTA demos that use the border, except TR can let you put real bitmapped graphics in that area.) The thing to remember is that we patch into the RGB signal and a few other places and the way the TR works, TR works semi-independently of the GS; you can overlay TR graphics on top of GS graphics, GS graphics on top of TR graphics, or put both in the same pixel (which can make for some really interesting color combinations.) Also, we can have up to 7500 colors on the screen at once; at the show we vertically scrolled 256 color GIF's up the screen, and at every transition we had both GIFs on the screen at once. And the hardware makes 8-way scrolling extremely easy and smooth to do (with a little software help) we wowed people by doing some scrolling in Fatbits while editing monster GIF's.. pictures which would ripple while scrolling even on a Quadra or a Rocket-equipped MAC. It should be remembered for those people that saw the thing scrolling that the smooth 8-way was the result of a few late-night hacks by a primarily hardware oriented person; just imagine what we could have done if we gave the board to someone graphically inclined like BurgerBill or the FTA... Look for a fairly official press release on the Trez to be uploaded in the next, ooooh, week or so. AFC DangardAce Path: General Q & A/Information/Apple Expo Graphics News Subj: TurboRez Info Part 1 92-10-12 11:18:56 EST From: RezTek Posted on: America Online -------- TurboRez GS (at a glance) --------- > Installs in any slot (except 3). Doesn't interfere with slot function. > Uses the stock RGB monitor. > Adds 3 new THR video modes to your GS: 1) 320 pixels by 256 colors 2) 640 pixels by 16 colors (w/dithering) 3) Mixed 320/640 pixels (on a line) > 18-bit color resolution that allows choices from 1/4 million available colors. > Has 192K of display ram, enough for up to 3 screens or "pages". Allows use of page- flipping (as on the older Apple II's). > True overscan (Full screen and horz only). > Vertical and Horizontal scrolling. > Auto-Pallette mode puts up to 7600 colors onscreen with no Cpu loading problems. > Enhanced video fill modes. > Hi speed (8Mhz) memory fill. ) Hi speed (8Mhz) page-to-page refreshing. ---------- TurboRez GS (in detail) ----------- (THR Video Modes) 1) 320 Mode: 320 pixels horz resolution. 8 bits per pixel. 256 colors on a line. 2) 640 Mode: 640 pixels horz resolution. 4 bits per pixel. Even and Odd pixels each have their own 16 color pallette. Allows SHR style dithering, if needed. 3) Mixed 320/640 Mode: Allows 320 mode pixels and 640 mode pixel/pairs to coexist on the same line. They share the pallette with the 320 pixels having 192 colors and the 640 pixel/pairs having 8 colors. Note: Excluding overscan, all of the above have a vertical resolution of 200 lines. (Overscan) Two overscan modes: Full screen and Horizontal only. On the horizontal axis, the screen is extended to 384 pixels. On the vertical axis, the screen is extended to 225 lines. (Scrolling) Full screen scrolling on either (or both) the horizontal or the vertical axis. Scrolling a particular axis requires appx 7-10% of the GS Cpu's time (a THR screen is 64K in size). (Auto-Pallette) Similar in concept to 3200 color mode on a stock GS, Auto-Pallette allows up to 7600 colors on- screen without bogging down the GS's Cpu. Up to 38 colors (out of 256) in the pallette can be updated per display line. This updating process is carried out via hardware, which accesses new color data embedded in the display ram in- between display line data sequences. This action occurs during the horizontal blanking time. (Video Fill) Similar to the SHR Fill mode on a stock GS except with, of course, greater color capabilty and better overlay handling. A big problem with SHR Fill mode occurs when attempting to sprite a foreground fill object over a fill background. The dificulty concerns the rightmost edge of the sprite and determining what the background fill color should be. This process destroys the speed advantage the fill should have given us. The TurboRez Video Fill provides the ability for the hardware to "remember" the color lying beneath the sprite object. (Memory Fill) Allows filling sections of display ram with a given byte value at an 8Mhz rate. (Page-To-Page Refresh) Allows simultaneously reading from one page (or bank) of display memory while writing to another at an 8Mhz rate. Typical use would be having an animation background stored in page 0 and 2, for instance. A sprite character is drawn into page 0. Later, a page-to-page refresh from page 2 to page 0 "erases" the sprite by restoring the background data. Path: General Q & A/Information/Apple Expo Graphics News Subj: TurboRez Info Part 2 92-10-12 11:19:47 EST From: RezTek Posted on: America Online ----------- TurboRez GS Installation ----------- The TurboRez GS card is a full length board. It will not fit into a retro-fitted IIe case. The card installs into any slot (except 3). There are jumpers that attach to several places on the GS motherboard but no soldering or chip pulling is required. A TurboRez card installed along with more than 1 or 2 other boards will mean your GS should probably have a cooling fan of some sort. Your RGB monitor uses the same connector at the back of the GS case as before. Memory requirements are, at minumum, whatever it takes to comfortably run System 6.0 on your GS. Anything above that is nice, though. --------- TurboRez GS Software ------------ The TurboRez board will ship with following software included: > A simple paint program. > A GIF file converter. > A Slide Show program. > A SHR file converter. > A HyperStudio NBA (Maybe) > The TurboRez Toolset package. The Toolset includes rudimentry drawing functions as well as support functions that allow the TurboRez video to "shadow" the SHR desktop display. Because the THR video is mixed with (or co-exists with) the stock SHR video, we have the ability to show both at the same time. This allows useful situations like having a standard 640 mode SHR desktop combined with a 320 mode THR image (in the SHR window). To make all of this mesh, the Toolset handles such things as cursor shadowing. It tracks the SHR cursor arrow and punches an arrow shaped black "hole" into the THR image. This keeps the cursor looking "solid" without the THR image showing thru the SHR arrow image. When the cursor moves, the THR hole is erased. There are similar functions that deal with shadow- ing SHR pull-down menus. The appearence of a SHR menu is tracked and a menu-shaped black "hole" is created in the THR image. When the menu retracts, the THR hole is erased. Again, these jobs are handled by the toolset, freeing the programmer to concentrate on other tasks.