----------------------------------------------------------------------------- America Online Apple II Art & Graphics Forum Date: 07/13/90 Conference moderated by: W. Scott Gentry (AFL Scott) Edited by: Bo Jordan (AFC BoJ) Topic: The future of TurboREZ GS Special Guest: Bill St. Pierre, designer/programmer of TurboREZ GS Location: Graphics Chat ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- AFL Scott Good evening and welcome to a very special AGR Event. Tonight, you who are here will become the first in the world to know the future of TurboREZ GS. Bill St. Pierre, the designer/programmer of TurboREZ is here to discuss his decision with you. For those of you who haven't followed the rumor mill or attended the past two AppleFests, TurboREZ GS is a hardware product that effectively turns a GS into a high-end graphics display system. Images displayed on TurboREZ GS are photographic in quality. TurboREZ also can be a high-end animation system. It can produce graphics that move just as fast, or faster than Amiga graphics. To quote Bill, "At AppleFest in New Jersey, the Amiga people came over to see the board and were really impressed". I was impressed, too. Really impressed. TurboREZ GS exists today only in prototype form. Tonight Bill will answer all your questions concerning the future of TurboREZ GS. First however, let me tell you that this conference is being held under strict, unyielding protocol. For more information on protocol, please, click on the menu bar at the top of the screen and select the HotShot item. This is an Apple II Art & Graphics Forum Exclusive Event. This conference is being logged. The log will be available in the Apple II Art & Graphics Forum's New File library shortly after the event's conclusion. This conference is copyright (c) 1990, Quantum Computer Services, Inc. and NoseWorks, Inc. The _entire_ log may be uploaded to any information service provided it is uploaded with this copyright notice and the following message intact: For more information on America Online, please call 1-800-227-6364... AGR, We've got the answers! It is now with extreme pleasure that I welcome to AGR and America Online, Mr. Bill St. Pierre, creator of TurboREZ GS. Welcome, Bill! :) WilliamSTP Thanks, Scott. (Please excuse my slow typing.) AFL Scott No problem, Bill... I suppose we should answer the inevitable question... What is the status of TurboREZ GS? WilliamSTP Well folks, as they say, first the bad news. We've decided to put TurboRez on hold at the present time. This was not the easiest decision I've ever had to make. We've got quite a bit of time, effort and money wrapped up in this guy. AFL Scott Bill, please elaborate on the factors governing the decision. Then we'll take questions. WilliamSTP A major part of this has to do with economics (what else!). Also, the upcoming Rev 04 GS has left us in a bit of a lurch. Since we don't know exactly what Apple has in mind here, we can't determine how it will affect our product. AFL Scott Are you ready for some questions, Bill? WilliamSTP Yes. AFA Parik Shoot me now... I'm bummed! No TurboREZ?!? :( Any chance of getting a prototype? And the obvious; ROM 04? Whazzat? WilliamSTP I'm sorry, not at any reasonable price, I'm afraid. :( These things are hand-built. DangardAce ROM 04? What makes you sure Apple will put one out? :) Also, are you aware that Apple has decided to put more of the G in GS by way of the Animation Toolset, which with the proper patches your board could easily support faster and better than the already overworked 65816/VGC? WilliamSTP Hello Pete. DangardAce Hey Bill. Still evangelizing but admittedly flattened by your announcement. WilliamSTP I'm afraid software alone is not going to be the answer for the GS's future. Sorry about the bad news. :( We're putting the project to sleep... but we're not killing it off completely. DangardAce But don't you think that Apple announcing the Animation Toolset is at least a positive step for Apple that your board could conceivably support/take advantage of? It's like vertical markets with IBM providing people with VGA latches and specs. WilliamSTP That's true, but at this point we've had no actual, confirmed info from Apple as to what their intentions are. If the Rev 04 machine has better graphics and they also provide a retrofit to the older GS's, then we'd be in a very bad spot ! AFL Scott Agreed, Bill. VICTORYSFT From talking with someone from your company at AppleFest, it seemed that it would take a nearly complete rewrite of certain tools to get the regular toolbox to take advantage of TurboREZ. I would assume that the animation toolset would be no simpler to convert. WilliamSTP Actually not a rewrite, probably big patches. :) VICTORYSFT Thanks. WilliamSTP The basic problem would be with Quickdraw. NewConcept What would it take to get the TurboREZ project "back in action", after all the R&D $$$ put into the project, it is more economical to more or less kill the project? Also, If Apple does offer an upgrade, I look at their history with the IIe to GS upgrade and the difference in price of the bare motherboards from 01 and 03 and to go 01 to 04 I have to believe it will be more economical to buy a new machine and sell the old which works our better for everyone.. A new GS with better graphics could mean the TurboREZ as an economical upgrade compatibility with the new machines graphic modes. WilliamSTP That's a good point. Let's talk a little about some of the other considerations we've been facing with our decision. At the NJ AppleFest, I noticed another problem that we might encounter with this product. Because of the "chicken and egg" situation, we'd have to get a large number of boards out there to ensure developer support. One of the larger parts of the Apple market is, of course, education. NewConcept New Concepts software, regardless of the original users, will/would develop for the TurboREZ. WilliamSTP With tax crunches and budget cuts, schools have to really watch their pocketbooks. With our small size, we can't produce in large volumes to keep the price initially (or for a ways down the road). At $400 to $500 retail, I'm afraid we're going to be out of reach for a lot of people. NewConcept We may have a solution... After AGR. Anyway, 80% of the readers of Incider and Nibble aren't involved with education as far as being a teacher, etc. and as the only GS product of the type available and given the demand there is no reason the board won't sell. We have the means possibly to even help you out with this project. $400 - 500 for 256 colors per line, 640 x 400? Isn't bad compared to what you get for the same with I*Ms..... Plus aside from it all the machine does so many other things... TurboRez should be standard equipment :) How far is the project? WilliamSTP Thanks for the compliments and offer of assistance :) We've got the prototype you may have seen at the show, of course. It's actually the third. NewConcept You sent us a video a year ago. We were impressed then... How far from completion, what is left to be done? WilliamSTP We've been looking at some slightly different designs... Possibly a low end version only for the stock monitor (no VGA). The other would be a higher scale model that would require a VGA-type monitor. (At present, this stuff is only on paper) Michael515 TransWarp GS retails for $400 (well, $399) and it sold a lot because it was (and still is) the ONLY IIgs accelerator available... so wouldn't Turbo Rez sell similarly? WilliamSTP Not necessarily. TransWarp can accelerate any program, it's generic. TurboRez will require special programming. Topino What was the speed that TurboRez was going to operate in? Would it speed up Quickdraw? Would it be user expandable (memory)? WilliamSTP Actually, it might slow Quickdraw down in some ways. You'd have more bits per pixel to deal with. Topino Will this board include a way for upgrading, ala Mac boards? WilliamSTP If nothing else, the onboard video memory will be expandable. AL Orphan What is the max resolution? How many units would you have to sell to make the project feasible? And you mentioned "first, the bad news". What's the good news? Also, is the ROM 04 anything more than a rumor? WilliamSTP The "good news" is that although TurboRez is on hold, there's a chance it will be resurrected in the future. (Probably not the near future.) As to resolution, 640 pixels by 16 colors by 200 lines, presently. That could change tremendously if we were to offer a true VGA-type system. AFL Scott I think the best way to answer the second question is to approximate how much in dollars it would take you to even produce a board. WilliamSTP Probably in the $40K to $100K range, minimum. And this doesn't include marketing, distribution, etc. AL Orphan I was wondering if you got enough people prepaying for the board if it would work out. Or, at least pledging to get it... something like the AOGS thingie. WilliamSTP That's a nice thought, I appreciate the offer, but it's a bit difficult to make business decisions based on something like that. Apl Artist You're asking for trouble by doing a prepay thing.. WilliamSTP Agreed. AFL Scott (BTW, an edited copy of this log will be sent to Apple). Apl Artist Orphan, recently Jasmine charged people for their drives before they were shipped, and when they went chp. 11, a lot of people lost their money. GuS Grafix Is your "not in the near future" comment related to the uncertainty about... Apple's intentions or what? WilliamSTP It is a major consideration for us. GuS Grafix Do you have any thoughts about what we at the grassroots level can do to get Apple (assuming THEY know what they are doing) to play ball a little more productively with hardware developers like you? It seems like everyone could win, if they helped you along with a touch of info under non-D. WilliamSTP That's true. We met a lot of Apple's people at the SF AppleFest in '89. At this time, however, we have yet to get any feedback, etc. from them. One exception was a fellow form Claris. AFL Scott (Sir AWGS.. Tom Hoke) WilliamSTP He was interested in possible support for AWGS. Other than that, we've heard nothing from Apple itself. AFL Marty (Tom Hoke, BTW, programmed the AWGS database module) AFL Scott (BTW, the log to Apple Idea is courtesy of AFL Marty.. Apple II Productivity, keyword: APR) GuS Grafix (Needless to say I _too_ would like to see TurboRez become a reality!! :) AFA Parik Have you talked with Apple or AE on purchasing this product from you? WilliamSTP We had some talks with the folks at Ingenuity, awhile back... but that didn't pan out. Their resources are limited, like ours. I don't believe Apple would want this product for various reasons, although I'd like to think they would encourage it (?). AFA Parik At the least ask AE! And Apple! Please don't assume. :( Also, what's next? Sky diving? Visit to Europe? Write a Mac emulator for the Apple II+? :) WilliamSTP Well... in the meantime, while we're cooling our heels... we'll continue giving the design aspects some thought. And probably be doing some software projects for the GS. Apl Artist AE would be the folks to talk to, not AI. AE cares enough to be able to do something... Why, you could even work out of your garage and if all else failed, and relive the Apple story all over again. :) WilliamSTP Ah... garages can get pretty cold in the winter :) :) NewConcept How many would you have to sell to break even on the product? If 1000 sold at a fair price, would you be in fair shape? Would you consider working with another company that has the resources to complete the project and produce it economically? WilliamSTP First question.. You can't just make a small number of boards and really call it even. There's a ramping up effect at work here. And, yes, we might be interested in working with another company on this, it's possible. NewConcept Send us your address/ph# Email and we will talk. We know how to make this work! economically.... WilliamSTP Okay, sounds interesting. Lucky24 Well, I'm disappointed that you've decided to shelve the Turborez; at least it was something new to look forward too. I just hope Apple decides to release this ROM 04 hardware (or whatever)... we've been waiting so long for an upgrade; I have almost given up and was hoping to at least see your product materialize. WilliamSTP Well... the bright side of this so far, may be that we've paved the, or at least, shown that something like this is possible. Lucky24 It seems that someone else always has to show that this is possible, at least with the Apple II. WilliamSTP So there may be hope yet... don't give up!! GuS Grafix NewConcept... I think Bill mentioned earlier that the hardware is just part of the overall picture... that one also needs to see software developed for the hardware... and I wonder if 1000 units would be large enough critical mass for software developers to target to (tho it WOULD be a start!!!) NewConcept I also stated earlier that we will/would develop for the board... AFL Marty What would have to happen to get you to consider continuing development on the TurboRez? WilliamSTP Well, partly resolution of the Apple Rev 04 question. Also, to tell you the truth, developing something like this is a bit of a strain on the brain :) AFL Marty I can imagine. WilliamSTP I think I might be in for a little charge of the 'ol battery, so to speak. AFL Marty The idea of your working together with another company is an interesting one, but I've not heard of New Concept before nor am I aware of any software written by them. Can you give some information along these lines? NewConcept Our first project is DreamGraphix 3200 Color Paint The rest is in the works and I cannot comment. VRPOLLARD Hi bill... Someone mentioned a videotape demo of the TurboREZ... How can one obtain a copy? Id rather have one in person but for the time being a videotape will do... is there a videotape demo available? WilliamSTP The videotape was made using our SF 'fest prototype, which could output thru the GS's composite port. The NJ 'fest version can't do that. Unfortunately, the SF version is on the blink, and we can't generate a tape at present. Sorry. VRPOLLARD I see now... I think that if Apple doesn't offer older GS's an upgrade path to newer GS then the TurboRez would be a perfect solution... Keep the dream alive!!! DangardAce Will the TurboRez still be a slot based product? Don't you think keeping NTSC composite output would be valuable to the educational sector? Maybe as you guys take off some time you should go to KansasFest to get your batteries recharged, mentally and emotionally.. :) WilliamSTP A little background here... The SF prototype actually intercepted signals from the VGC chip. You removed the VGC and put in a jumper cable. That way we could access the RGB and the Composite ports. The Rev 03 GS's soldered the VGC in place... ooops !!! So, the NJ version had to be done differently. However, a composite adapter would be no big deal. DangardAce Well, how about the Genlocking capabilities you alluded to at NJ Fest? Also, since HyperCard GS is a GIVEN thanks to the printed schedule for the A2-Central Conference, maybe you guys might want to allow for a little multimedia toolsetting. :) WilliamSTP Genlocking is a possibility... but only if we wouldn't have to sacrifice too many other features, or raise the price even more. AFL Scott (Genlocking is what the VOC does to overlay Video under a computer graphic) NewConcept What will be the 320 x 200 mode? Also, aren't there MANY more ROM 01s than 03s? Possibly just market this for the 01.... I have heard that the 03 to 04 upgrade may just be chips... the "01ers" would be out of luck and the TR would be the BEST upgrade possible. WilliamSTP On the present prototype it's : 320 pixels by 256 colors . There are multiple palettes available... Also the SHR video can be "sprited" in on top of the TurboRez image. NewConcept 4096 colors? WilliamSTP Actually, 2048 onscreen. NewConcept Why not 4096 max? WilliamSTP On the ROM 01 vs 03 question, we'd like to cover both. There's 8 groups of 256 colors available. NewConcept But economically it is both less expensive and better to produce for the ROM 1. There are like 750,000 01s and 200,000+ 03s... I have an 03, but... Going about the video the way you have stated you are doing so the VGC route is a lot faster and better in general. WilliamSTP I agree, but to plug into the VGC socket requires a special ( i.e. expensive ) adaptor. More cost problems there :) NewConcept But the end product would come out sooner and be more functional... AFC DaveS Apple also doesn't make the ROM 01 anymore... marketing a product like this for just the ROM 01 doesn't seem especially progressive. ... and more cost. What do you think about the marketability of a less-capable board? Perhaps something like a fast frame buffer mapped into Bank 1, which would require perhaps not as many mods to existing software. The frame buffer could be tied to a cheap off-the-shelf video controller. Would such a product be too "generic" to really be profitable? WilliamSTP Hard to say. AFC DaveS It would make TWGS owners happy :) WilliamSTP One "cheap" approach we looked at was 3200 color adaptor. It would relieve the processor of doing the intensive palette updates that are presently needed. But, I'm not sure this would be a viable approach, even at a lower cost. AFA Parik Is Vitesse interested in TurboRez? good luck w/ TurboRez, I really hope it comes out soon! I will ask at KC for Apple people to call you and get some nondisclosures signed. :-) WilliamSTP We've had no contact with them. NewConcept A 3200 color adapter would mean our program could be modified to be straight full featured 3200 color at a time 3D rendering program... Artwork and programs could be designed with 3200 color animation, etc... This is the way to go if it is too expensive to finish the other project. This would be QUITE marketable! It would be new life! and then with the revenue that something like that would generate you could go on with the other project... Intrude on the CPUs time? WilliamSTP Yes, that's true, it would make something like that possible. It would still intrude on the CPU's time a bit. It would have to DMA the palette data in, in real time, so you would lose some CPU access. However, the CPU program would be independent of the palette update process. Jump Long Bill, you should contact Apple Evangelism if want to talk about future stuff... that's their purpose in life. I work for DTS. WilliamSTP A good point, however I think we'd all like to see a real 04 machine, in the flesh, just to settle things once and for all. NewConcept The 3200 color processor... a blitter? WilliamSTP Not exactly. AFL Scott If one exists, Bill... As Jim said, contact Apple Evangelism. They can put you on the right track, I think. NewConcept Are you an Apple Certified Developer? WilliamSTP True enough, Scott. No, we're not. AFL Scott That's a problem, then. NewConcept A big problem... all that $$$ and no $600 to Apple.... AFL Scott You need to call the developers hotline first, Bill. They can send you the info necessary to become one... and BTW, it's only $300 now. WilliamSTP We'll check it out. AFC DaveS This really isn't related to the product, but as a neophyte computer engineer, I was curious how difficult it would be to run the output of the GS RGB port into a board, have the aforementioned "cheap video controller" lock onto the sync signals, and "overlay" graphics with an analog multiplexer of some kind. What would I have to worry about? WilliamSTP Actually, our NJ proto works somewhat along those lines. It does get tricky, however. AFC DaveS Thanks :) AFA Dave With this product will we be able to view 256 color GIF files? WilliamSTP Yes, we wrote a GIF converter for it. NewConcept Why didn't you start with something lowendish and go on from there.. Get some product out there to generate the revenue that you need for a project of this size? WilliamSTP That's one approach I've been considering. It would be nice to have some amount of upward compatibility. NewConcept Is there still time to do something like that or all you stretched $$$$$ Does the Friday the 13th have anything to do with the bad news? :) Please send us E-Mail so we can get into contact. WilliamSTP No, the timing is a coincidence. We'll be in touch. NewConcept Also, The GS 01 with 750000 compared to the number of 03 machines would be a much better market and given Apples support I don't think it is really worth developing for them all in the beginning. An 03 version after revenue has been generated with an 01 version. Then go on from there. WilliamSTP I'd like to avoid doing double the development work, if possible. NewConcept But is there a big difference between converting the RGB output and using the VGC connect... Your first wirewrap version went threw the VGC... way back in 89. WilliamSTP It could be a problem. AFL Scott Well, if there are no more questions, I'd like to thank Bill for coming here tonight... It's been a long, long time. AFA Parik Thanks for coming Bill. Sorry to hear about TurboRez. Hope you talk with both Apple & AE Monday, ASAP! We're rooting for ya! WilliamSTP I'd like to thank Scott for setting this up and for all his support. :) :) AFL Scott Bill... Want the number to Developer Services? (408) 974-4897.. AFC BoJ Thanks for coming and letting us know the direction you are heading with the TurboRez, Bill. :) NewConcept It has been a great conference and will definitely benefit the II world. AFC DaveS Thanks for coming and giving us da lowdown on the product, Bill! And thank you for your patience. :) AFL Scott Thank you, Bill. I only hope it helps you out with your efforts and that we can be of further help if you need us. I know I'm disappointed.. in fact, I'm really going to miss what I think is possible with the board. Let's hope it never goes completely away. WilliamSTP Well, it's not dead yet, just in deep hibernation. NewConcept Can you get away for the 2 days for KansasFest? WilliamSTP No, sorry to miss it. :( AFL Scott Oh boy, sounds like fun!:) NewConcept WHY! It really seems to me that it should be a high priority! Jump Long All of Apple II DTS is going and a good portion of Apple II software engineering will be there, too. AFL Scott I wish I could go, but things aren't great here, yet. WilliamSTP Sorry, got to make a living, you know. :) AFL Scott Let's hope something good comes from this... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- This transcript is copyright (c) 1990, NoseWorks,Inc. It may be uploaded to any information service/BBS provided it is unedited.