America Online
Apple II Art & Graphics Forum
conference log of May 15, 1992
edited by Dave Seah
topic: Digitizing, Animation & the AST Vision Plus Technical Stuff
       (Happy Birthday Steve!)
location: AGR Conference Room

--- LOG PREAMBLE - Happy Birthday to SteveB! ---

AFL Marty  HAPPY BIRTHDAY STEVE
AFL Marty  (just in case everyone didn't know :)
AFC DaveS  Everyone send Steve a Happy Birthday IM!
AFC Tosh   Birthday Boy. :)
AFA Binky  <Plan on driving up to Yellowstone week after next and was looking
           for...
AFC DaveS  Closest we'll get to spanking him :)
AFC SteveB Whoah!  Thanks!
AFA Binky  "pointers">
Nuzz       Oh, Its Steve's birthday
AFC Ted    Shall I see if I can find my cake macro?
AFC SteveB utoh :)
AFL Marty  Does a naked lady jump out of it? :)
AFC Tosh   Thats Nekkid.
AFC Ted    not sure whether it's j7 or j5 :) (it's from one of the old
           jeopardy macros)
AFC DaveS  Pointers to Yellowstone?  WIsh I had some...I've only flown over
           it.
Nuzz       So Steve, how old are you now
AFC SteveB Over the Hill, Mike
AFC SteveB 15. :D
AFC DaveS  The big 15!
AFC Tosh   :)
Nuzz       The big One-Five
AFC Ted    here we are...
AFC Tosh   lol
AFC DaveS  Scott!
AFC DaveS  Dude!
AFC Ted     
AFC Ted     
AFC Ted                           A       A
AFC Ted                 A         O       O          A
AFC Ted                 O       A |       | A        O
AFC Ted                 |       O |       | O        |
AFC Ted                 |    ^^^|^|^^^^^^^|^|^^^     |
AFC Ted           ,,,,^^|````   | |       | |   `````|^^,,,,,
AFC Ted          @      |       |           |        |      @
AFC Ted          |@@@@@aaaaaa   |           |    aaaaaaa@@@@|
AFC Ted          |           aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa@           |
AFC Ted          |                                          |
AFC Ted      ;=+/|                                          |\+=;
AFC Ted     /    |                                          |    \
AFC Ted     \    @@@aaaa                             aaaaa@@@    /
AFC Ted      \__        @@@aaaaa              aaaaaaa@        __/
AFC Ted         \_______        @aaaaaaaaaaaa@         ______/
AFC Ted                \_______                _______/
AFC Ted                        \______________/
AFA Binky  15 like in fifteen yeras old?
AFC Ted    Hi Scott :)
AFC Tosh   Yea Ted!!!
AFC SteveB You got it, Binkster!
AFC DaveS  Happy Birthday to you!  You smell like a shoe!  I hope I don't
           puke...
Nuzz       Being 15 and so talented is obscene :)
AFA Binky  Hey Scotto
AFC SteveB Appreciate it, Ted! :)
AFC DaveS  HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOOOOUUUU!
AFL Scott  Sorry I'm late, I was in the bathroom. :(
AFC SteveB Yo Scott!
AFC SteveB :)
AFC DaveS  It's Steve's birthday! :)
AFA Binky  Hope everything came out alright, Scott...
AFC Tosh   The kids say Hurl now Dave! 
AFL Scott  Happy birthday, Steve! :)
AFC DaveS  ooops...that's right, Tosh!
Nuzz       You shouldn't Read InCider that often Scott
AFC DaveS  Happy Birthday to You!  You smell like a squirrel!  I hope I don't
           hurl...
AFL Scott  It's been coming out alright since Wednesday night, Bink! :)
AFC SteveB I'm so happy I think I'm gonna hurl!  :)
AFC DaveS  Happy Birthday to YOOOOUUU!
AFC Ted    Dave...isn't it nice to know you're not a kid any more? ;)
AFC Tosh   :)
AFC DaveS  Yeah :)  I wish I weighed as much as I did back then, though :)
AFC Ted    me too


--- START OF EDITED LOG ---


AFL Scott  So, tonight is Paint Program night!

AFC Tosh   oooo I like Paint programs

AFL Scott  Me too!

AFC DaveS  You know, I found a couple more people who don't like DPaint on
           the Internet :)

AFC Ted    me too

AFL Marty  ROTFL
AFL Marty  A "couple".

AFC DaveS  LOL...yep, a couple :)
           I didn't want to look TOO hard ;)

AFL Marty  :)
AFC Tosh   DPII is all my kids will use now.

FredW GS   Hey Scott, I FINALLY got an algorithm that does good RAWDATA->3200
           conversions.

AFC DaveS  Really?  Can't figger out them youngsters these days, eh? :)

AFC Tosh   (though my 7 year old wants Kid Pix cuz she has an LC at school)

AFL Scott  Me, I'm using DreamGrafix more each day.  It's really a great
           program!  But I still have problems with 3200 color mode and
           getting the palettes right.

AFC DaveS  I find slinging colors around in DG a bit cumbersone myself,
           Scott.

AFC Tosh   3200 is tough.....I prefer 256 myself.

AFC DaveS  I like the 256 color mode, too.

AFC Ted    Tosh's daughter...she wants to use an M- computer

AFC DaveS  What is KidPix?

FredW GS   So what digitizer would you recommend right now Scott?

AFL Scott  Still the Visionary.  But you'll have a hard time
           finding one.

AFC Tosh   Kid Pix is big on Rubber Stamping and effects.....I don't like it
           because it doesn't encourange the kids to draw for themselves.

AFL Scott  Although, I know of a company that has about 325 of the AST Vision
           Plus boards  just waiting to be upgraded.

AFC DaveS  DPaint is good for stamping stuff :)

AFL Scott  All they need is a new ROM and software... Hmmm. :)

FredW GS   What does the upgrade entail Scott...User do-able?

AFL Scott  Welcome to AGR and a Paint Program bonanza! :)

AFL Scott  If you have questions and comments about Apple II paint program,
           feel free to chime in!

Topino     I got bumped :(  I feel like AFC DaveS :)

AFC DaveS  Except not as coool :)

Scott1001  I've got a question about platinum paint...

AFL Scott  Sure, fire away, Scott!

Scott1001  When I paste something larger than the window, whats not showing
           gets cropped. Is this a bug?

AFL Marty  That's a feature.

AFC Ted    Scott, it's an annoyance.

AFC DaveS  The only software I've seen that doesn't crop is the Quickie 2.0
           software.

AFL Scott  Most likely isn't a bug.  Most paint programs don't handle that
           situation well though.

Topino     EV doesn't :)

AFL Scott  They could handle it, but they often opt not to in favor of saving
           memory.  On a lot of systems, that doesn't make much sense.

Scott1001  Paintworks Gold would do it, I think?

AFL Scott  Paintworks Gold doesn't let you resize the "window".  In fact,
           there are no windows.

AFC Ted    I don't remember about PWG.  It had a pretty big painting window,
           so it's not so noticeable

AFC Tosh   My question would be....What use is a picture that is bigger than
           the screen?

AFC DaveS  Besides, most of the really nifty stuff is free :)

AFC Ted    Good Question, Tosh

AFL Scott  I know you cannot cut an area bigger than the screen, though.

AFC DaveS  Printing?

Topino     On the GS, it's a problem, but on other systems, larger pics are
           WIDELY used for many things... printing (thanx Dave!) is a good
           example.

AFC Tosh   Good Dave.....but thats a low priority with me.

AFL Scott  Donald.  Paintworks Gold and PNT format pictures are
           keyed to the size of an 8.5 x 11 sheet of paper.

AFC Tosh   Name another.

Scott1001  If you wanted to make a border around the entire document

AFL Scott  That means you can paint a cover sheet for a report or something
           like that, and have it print on exactly one sheet.

Topino     If you had HIGHER rez that that of the GS, you'd like your pics to
           be 800 x 600 or 1025 x 768, wouldn't you?

AFC DaveS  Everytime I print on my printer, it comes out more than a page
           :(

Topino     1024, I meant.

AFC Ted    But Dino, we don't have higher res.  I wanna display them on my
           GS

AFL Scott  No, not necessarily, Dino.
AFC Tosh   Not if I couldn't see it on one screen Dino.

AFL Scott  You need to set top of form properly, Dave.

AFL Scott  If I print a 396x320 picture it fits _exactly_ on one sheet.

AFC DaveS  But I do, Scott.  I TOF right at the bleeding, ragged edge of the
           paper.

Topino     That's if you're using it on a GS Tosh, on other systems pics get
           printed for many uses (DTP, for example).

AFL Scott  What kind of printer?

AFC DaveS  Maybe it's just because I have an Epson compatible printer...the
           printer driver never seems to work with it right.

AFL Scott  That's probably it, Dave.

AFC Tosh   When I look around at things I don't have to scroll my eyes to see
           everything.

Topino     Tosh, if you had a 2 page color display, you wouldn't scroll!
Topino     :)

AFC Tosh   We are talking about Apple II's here Dino. :)

Scott1001  Does anybody here use a HP DeskJet?
Topino     me :)

Topino     Tosh, that's why I said _if_ you weren't using an Apple II :)

AFC Tosh   So besides printing....what use is a pic larger than one screen?

AFC DaveS  I can't print TEACH docs or any text...it always comes out
           wrong.
AFC DaveS  *sigh*

AFC DaveS  Maybe a scrolling game screen?  Something cool and wide, you could
           pan left...revealing the XJ-500 Super Duper Space Interceptor
           Scramble Jet!

AFL Scott  Dino, you'll find out when you work with different hardware that
           it's not always necessary or even desireable to have a picture
           fill the screen.

FredW GS   You could get the picture from another source which has a higher
           rez than the GS, and you don't want to crop or downsample.

AFC Tosh   That's different Dave......

Topino     Scott, I DO use different grfx hardware ALL the time... I like my
           pics the size they  are, in the high rez they are, and in the
           color they are :)

AFC DaveS  Well, Tosh, I often make > screen size pics because I don't want
           to trade detail for screen size.

AFL Scott  What's more important is an accurate representation of the final
           output. 

Topino     true Scott.

AFC DaveS  I suppose it depends what you are doing.

Topino     Too bad we can't upgrade GS VRAM :)

FredW GS   I really wish one of the DTP programs would create a picture
           within a document which is  the best PS can do for the space
           allocated...instead of a bitmap of what is on the screen.

AFC DaveS  Anyway, I'm glad the ability to do > screen sized pictures is
           here.

AFC DaveS  There may not be too many applications numerically, but the ones
           that exist are justification enough, IMHO.

AFC Tosh   <---Still waiting for programs which exploit the hardware we do
           have now.....
AFC Tosh   like animation.

AFL Scott  On the GS, it's here, too.  It's always been here.

AFC Tosh   Digitized animation.

AFC DaveS  That would be cool.

FredW GS   Is it possible to do a 3200 animation program?

Scott1001  I can get almost laser quality line art with GWIII and a HP
           DeskJet

Topino     Not really, but it would be REAL small sprites :(

AFC Tosh   QuickTime GS would still head my want list. :)

AFC DaveS  Maybe limited...if the programmer tried to move too much memory to
           get a sizable area of the screen moving, he/she couldn't keep the
           palettes updated fast enough and the colors would flicker.

FredW GS   I have a feeling CPU tim would limit it too much.

CaptainTom I've seen some quicktime stuff but it wasn't as impressive as I
           thought...
CaptainTom On an LC some of it was rather disappointing...

Topino     If you had a FAST CPU it would help.

Scott1001  I have a GS animation that was converted from a MAC quicktime
           movie

AFL Scott  If I were to animate with multiple palettes, I would let 16
           palettes be my limit.  
FredW GS   Ok here's a question...does anyone use MOVIE.VIEWER and would
           anyone use it more if I updated it?


Topino     whazzat Scott10001?

AFC DaveS  Maybe not too much help, though.  Memory still chugs pretty
           slowly, even if the processor is ZIP'd or TWGS'd.

AFC DaveS  I honestly haven't had a chance to look at it, Fred :(

AFA Andy   I use it Fred :)

AFL Scott  I'd probably use it, but it needs to be faster.

Scott1001  I got it off genie.. It is in a Paintworks animation file
           and it is flicker free.

Topino     But dave, if memory swapps were allowed to be done faster, thru a
           faster bus :)

AFL Scott  What is it of?

Scott1001  Its a rotating torso

Topino     How many colors?

Scott1001  grey scale

FredW GS   The speed is limited by HD speed Scott...There's not too much
           programming will speed it up save using some sort of stream mode or
           something.

AFL Scott  True, but assembler can help.

CaptainTom There is also a rotating bust of Queen Nefertiti...

Scott1001  Has this been uploaded yet?

AFC Tosh   How does Quicktime work.....It must dump frame info to memory then
           write to the disk later.......

Scott1001  I've seen it work. Its  _____very_slow_____\

AFC Tosh   Slow to produce a movie?

Scott1001  Slow to digitize each frame.

AFC Tosh   That would be OK....its the showing that counts.

AFL Scott  Quicktime's speed depends entirely on the platform
           and the digitizing hardware used to capture.

AFL Scott  Upload your 3200 color converter!

AFC Tosh   Could the EV+ dump the info in a way that could be capturted?

AFL Scott  Not for long with the current ROM.

Scott1001  The Mac that I saw it on could also put a video signal in a
           window on the desktop with full color ... it was neat!

FredW GS   There's a problem with that Scott... On a GS it takes 10 HRS.

AFL Scott  So, people will wait!  Upload it! :)

AFC DaveS  Wow...is that with acceleration, Fred?

FredW GS   No that is not accelerated.

FredW GS   I'm running it at school right now...takes 30 minutes :)

AFC Tosh   10 hrs...30 mins?  Lost me.

AFC DaveS  What's it written in?  C?

AFL Scott  Tosh, the more complete answer to your question is this:  Not
           right now.  Remember, it only does

AFA Andy   BASIC, Dave ;)

FredW GS   I'm trying to find short-cuts. too speed it up...but it needs
           assembly.

FredW GS   Nope Basic Dave >blush<

AFL Scott  15 frames per second and those frames are really culled from two
           fields.  That means that there is no way right now unless the
           capture area or the capture sequence is modified.

FredW GS   The 3200 converter takes a Computereyes Raw DAta file and makes it
           a true 3200 color pic.  They look very good now.
           It's in Micol BASIC for the GS.

AFC DaveS  Don't be embarassed, Fred...at least you wrote one.
AFC DaveS  ...name 10 people who have :)

James S WI I don't know if this hase been covered but when will Prism be
           out?

AFC Tosh   I think 15 or 12 frames per sec would be fine......
AFC Tosh   Whats the hang up?   

FredW GS   And I would GLADLY collaborate with anyone would like to port the
           routine to C or assembly.

AFC DaveS  Topino is the local Prism representative, James!

FredW GS   We'd have a new utility and I'd learn some C and desktop.
FredW GS   Or assembly and desktop.

AFL Scott  Tosh, the problem with that is still in the design of the ROM. 
           You see, you get parts of two fields and that induces motion
           artifacts.

Topino     Prism should be out within 2 months James.

FredW GS   Would there be a noticeable speed increase between BASIC and
           Pascal.

James S WI 2 months :(  Why?  The demos I saw months ago looked great.

FredW GS   Please note MICOL BASIC is compiled.

FredW GS   I have ORCA PASCAL, got disgusted with the lack of DISK I/O and
           gave up on it.  I should have gotten C.

AFC Tosh   I guess what I'm asking is...Could the GS, with enough memory
           capture 48 frames at 12 FPS and hold that in memory.....then
           take its time writing those to a hard drive.

AFL Scott  Yes, it could, Donald, but you proably wouldn't like the result.

AFL Scott  It would have streaks in it just like it does when you digitize to
           the screen in mono full screen when there's motion.

AFL Scott  In four megs...you could probably fit about 90 or so frames
           depending on what you have loaded.

AFC Tosh   Is that because of processor speed or ROM stuff Scott?

AFL Scott  The ROM stuff.  Processor speed is irrelevant.

AFC DaveS  Motion streaks, or glitches-streaks?

AFL Scott  See, processor speed would be irrelevant because
           you could precalculate the addresses for DMA before digitizing and
           in six instructions pop them into the address register.

AFC Tosh   Go on Scott.

AFL Scott  That way, you'd only be exec'ing six instructions between each
           frame, hence processor speed is negated.

AFC Tosh   OK.....so you could get somewhat decent results on a slow moving
           subject?

AFC Tosh   Like a head talking?

AFL Scott  Perhaps.

AFL Scott  But, you'd have to have that ability.  Allison right now doesn't
           provide that ability.

AFC Tosh   Well, keep it in mind Boss. :)

AFC DaveS  Scott, can you get faster rates if you don't grab the whole
           screen?  

AFL Scott  You can get faster rates if you grab every fourth horizontal (x)
           line. 


AFC Tosh   Even 6 FPS would be fine for a talking head.....I shoot 6 and 12
           quite often for a funky look on movement.....It settles down quite
           well when the subject doesn't move.

AFL Scott  After every fourth line, you can keep that in a buffer for later
           processing.  The processing would entail adjusting the aspect
           ratio to make each frame proportional instead of simply a
           stretched version of each screen.

AFC DaveS  What a cool halloween project that would be...evil talking head in
           the window.

Zorkster   <Shiver>

AFC DaveS  Tosh, you have something cooking in the ways of animation?

AFC DaveS  (imagining Chris McKinsey as the Evil Talking Head in a certain
           game :)
AFC DaveS  (with a curly Dr. Who wig :)

AFC Tosh   Nope.....I would just like to have the ability to do it. :)

AFC SteveB ROTFL!

AFC Tosh   Good Idea Dave.....Gotta get some footage of him. :)

AFC DaveS  What do these streaks look like, Tosh?

AFC Tosh   Its like Video Tearing if you've seen that....when your vcr is not
           tracking correctly.

AFC DaveS  "Figure out how to shave another dozen cycles off my animation
           loop, but it's a secret" - C.M.

AFC Tosh   Nyah Nyah.....CM.

AFC DaveS  So it really renders it unusable, eh Tosh?  Is the entire scanline
           hosed?

AFC SteveB "I figured out how to shave!" - C.M.

AFC DaveS  "Ow!" - C.M.

AFC SteveB :)

AFC Tosh   Yes....but it could be deleted with a paint program.

AFC DaveS  Any motion at all destroys the entire line? :(

AFC Tosh   Careful guys.....you're talkin about my partner. ;)

AFC DaveS  "Tosh is my partner" - C.M.

AFC Tosh   The signal just gets a little behind the dislpay....or ahead.

AFC DaveS  "Uh oh...pushed him too far!" - D.S.

AFC DaveS  It depends on which way the movement is, Tosh?

AFC Tosh   It will be done when its done...D.M.


--- END OF LOG ---

This transcript is copyright (c) 1990 by NoseWorks, Inc.  It
may be uploaded to any information service/BBS provided that
it is unedited.