---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------APPLE II ART & GRAPHIC FORUM CONFERENCE LOG: May 17: 1991 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Topics: The Operation Apple Storm Contest Winners, and the Art Guild. AGR...We've got the answers! --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DangardAce What's tonight's topic, anyway AFL Scott Art Guild, Paint Programs, but first, I'm announcing the winners of OAS! AFL Marty Tonight's topic: Why graphics are better than games :) YarkoT They are Marty? DangardAce Seriously though what's tonight's topic? AFC DaveS It's Contest Results for Operation Apple Storm, followed by some spirited AFC DaveS discussion on paint programs and the Art Guild report, too! :) AFL Scott It's a shame that not all the winners are here tonight... AFL Marty Oh well... AFL Marty Two of them are :) AFL Scott Good Evening! Welcome to the Apple II Art & Graphics AFL Scott Forum Conference for Friday, May 17, 1991! AFL Scott Tonight is a special night in AGR! In a few moments, AFL Scott We're going to announce the winners of the AFL Scott Operation Apple Storm: Design Your Own Ad Contest! AFL Scott Before I make the announcement, I would like to thank AFL Scott Vitesse, Inc., and Roger Wagner Publishing, Inc., and AFL Scott AFL Marty of the Apple II Productivity Forum for donating AFL Scott their wonderful prizes. Such support of Apple II users AFL Scott does not go unnoticed! These companies and AFL Marty AFL Scott make the Apple II a vital part of our lives. Thank you AFL Scott from the bottom of my heart! You all are great and keep up AFL Scott the outstanding work!!!! AFL Scott The winners in the Top three categories will have their AFL Scott choice of prizes. The Grand Prize winner will have AFL Scott choice of one of the three fine prizes: AFL Scott Quickie by Vitesse! AFL Scott One software package from Roger Wagner Publishing! AFL Scott or, Five (5) free hours provided by the Apple II AFL Scott Productivity Forum! AFL Scott One of the remaining prizes will be selected by the AFL Scott Second place winner, with the remaining prize going AFL Scott to the Third place winner.... AFL Scott As a bonus, AGR is providing two free hours each to two AFL Scott Honorable mention winners!!! AFL Scott Now for the announcements!!!!!! AFL Scott Honorable mention 2... Sometimes uploading the most entries AFL Scott and showing your enthusiasm through hard work and creative Vitesse Brrrrrrr..... (Drum roll.) AFL Scott programming pays off!! Such is the case with YarkoT! YarkoT AFL Scott You have won 2 free hours for your entries titled AFL Marty Yeah! YarkoT Thats Great !!!! AFL Scott AppleShow!!! Congratulations!!!!! AFL Marty Congratulations! Vitesse Yee-ha!!! AFC Tosh Nice Stuff!!!! GuS Grafix Congrats, Yarko! AFL Scott Honorable mention 1... HyperStudio has always been a medium AFL Scott for showing ideas. A great idea was presented under HyperStudio YarkoT thanks Everyone. AFL Scott by our second winner of two free hours, SFAC MikeD! Mike's winning AFL Scott entry titled "Apple II Promo" demonstrated that creativity is AFL Scott a key! Great work, Mike!!! AFL Scott Now, for the moment we've all been waiting for... The Grand Prize AFL Marty Excellent stack BTW! Vitesse I was _very_ impressed! GuS Grafix Congrats, Mike! AFL Scott winner!!! Our winner will get his choice of either one Vitesse AFL Scott Quickie Scanner or can choose one of the many fine software AFL Scott products from Roger Wagner Publishing, including HyperStudio!!! AFL Scott We were very surprised by the large turnout of ads uploaded created AFL Scott under the Appleworks GS Page Layout module. To say the least, they AFL Scott were all stunning and all presented very good ideas for a possible AFL Scott campaign, however, there can only be one Grand Prize winner and that AFL Scott winner is... AFL Scott {S DrumRoll} AFL Scott BruceR24 for his entry Apple II Productivity!!!!! Congratulations, Bruce!!!! AFL Marty Yes!! IC Gerry Way to GO Bruce!!!!!!!! AFL Marty Congrats! GuS Grafix Way to go, Bruce! Vitesse Fantastic! AFL Scott What an outstanding ad!!! Sign posts of productivity!!! AFC DaveS thuppathuppathuppa! Congratulations, Bruce!!! :) AFC Tosh Terrific Bruce! YarkoT Congratulatons!!!!! AFC DaveS Congratulations all! AFL Scott That's the Apple II alright!!! AFL Marty (Seeds of productivity I think) AFL Scott I know... But there were signposts there, too! AFL Scott :) AFL Marty Those were seed packets, Scott :) AFL Scott Oh...:) AFL Scott I liked it, though! :) AFL Marty (like in a garden) AFC DaveS :) AFL Marty So did I! AFL Scott Bruce isn't here, so we'll move on! AFL Scott This kind of screws up the prize selection, so we'll have to do this via Email AFL Scott Remaining winners, please note your prime choice, then I'll mail you with AFL Scott the available choices. GuS Grafix (answered the question on my lips, even as you spoke, Scott :) AFL Scott All this will happen AFTER I hear back from Bruce! AFL Scott :) AFL Scott and address (please include your phone number) to me and I'll forward it AFL Scott to the company whose prize you chose! Congratulations again, Bruce!!! AFL Scott Our second place winner is no stranger to the world of AFL Scott Apple II Art & Graphics! The winner took a page from history AFL Scott to create his ad, "We The Users"... The winner is none other than AFL Scott AFC Tosh!!!! Congratulations, Tosh!!!!!! Take the money and run, dude!!! AFL Marty Allright! AFL Marty YAY! AFC Tosh :) AFL Marty Congrats Tosh! AFC DaveS Coolness! :) AFC Ted Far out!! YarkoT Congrats Tosh :> AFC DaveS Say something to crowd, Tosh-dude! GuS Grafix Congrats, Donald:) AFC JohnC Tosh....WTG!!!!!!! Vitesse Outsatnding!! AFC Tosh Thanks...blush AFL Scott I might ad(d) that this was the first America Online contest that was Vitesse ...and outstanding, as well. AFL Scott open to virtually everyone online. YarkoT I hope john Sculley can see your John Pen!!! AFC DaveS A first! AFL Scott The only users who weren't eligible were Marty, John, Roger, Joyce, and myself. IC Gerry Hopefully a trend for the future..:) AFL Scott I must say, too, that I thought more staff persons would participate. AFC DaveS I thought so too ;) AFL Scott Any how, back to the winners!!!! :) AFL Scott Please, Tosh, send your selection of prize along with your full name and AFL Scott address straight to me and I'll forward it along to the proper person!!! IC Gerry Maybe many didn't realize they were eligible, Scott..:) GuS Grafix AFC DaveS :) AFL Marty Take what's behind door #3! GuS Grafix Door #1 AFL Scott I'll do that immediately after hearing from Bruce! Vitesse Take the new GS CPU! (Hoping...0 AFL Scott Our Third Place winner is a very, very creative artist in his AFL Scott own right, as well as a very good idea man!!! Everyone has his AFL Scott or her own feelings about Apple's treatment of the GS and its AFL Scott users, and our third place winner pretty much summed it up -- AFL Scott The Apple II GS is a "Diamond in the Rough"!!!! Our third place AFL Scott winner is... AFL Scott Whizman GS!!!!! Congratulations, Whizman!!!!! Great work!! AFC DaveS *applause* AFC DaveS whoop whoop! IC Gerry Congrats!!!!!! AFL Scott Please email your name and address to me and I'll make sure your AFL Scott prize gets awarded!!! Thanks!!! AFC DaveS stompastompatompoppo AFL Scott Finally, I'd like to thank everyone who entered our contest!!! AFC Tosh Nice Pic. :) AFL Scott It was very close right up to the last minute!!! Everyone who entered AFL Scott should be proud that they have said their piece in the ongoing GuS Grafix Awright...Whizman surfaces again in yet another contest winner's circle!!! AFL Scott saga of the Apple II!!! AFL Scott II Infinitum!!! AFC DaveS What it is, mama! AFC DaveS er, II Infinitum! :) AFL Scott Congratulations all! AFL Scott Thanks for the wonderful contest... AFL Scott Donald would like to make an announcement!!! AFL Scott Go ahead, Tosh!!! AFC DaveS Ooo! AFC Tosh I'd just like to donate my prize to the next in line...:) AFL Scott That's really big of you, Donald!!! Thanks!!! AFC Tosh 1st runner up? AFL Marty Oooo! That be Whizman! Vitesse What a gesture! AFC DaveS Wow! What generosity! What showmanship! AFL Scott Great!!!! AFC DaveS Whattaguy...that's AFC Tosh! :) IC Gerry {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Tosh}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} AFL Scott Ok... Dave... it's your show!!!! I'm going to Email all the winners and AFC DaveS OK :) SONGORO Hi I am new to the forum, I live in NYC and work as a teacher AFL Scott remember... Be cool! :) AFC DaveS It's time for the AGR Art Guild Update!!! AFL Marty Welcome Songoro AFC DaveS Hi Songoro! Welcome to AGR! AFL Scott Welcome Songoro!!! AFC DaveS We just announced the contest winners for Operation Apple Storm, an AFC DaveS online contest involving member-created "advertising" for promoting the AFC DaveS Apple II. AFC DaveS And now, I shall update the World At Large on the Art Guild! Vitesse Is anyone going to UL the entries to "JLPossum"? :I AFC Tosh :) SONGORO thanks for the welcome ,I would like to know if I can dowload with my Mac things to use in an Apple II AFL Marty I will. GuS Grafix Hehehe, JohnP :) AFC Ted She's too busy with her nails to look at them Vitesse #;^) YarkoT Does your mac have a 1.44mb FDHD Drive? SONGORO yes AFC DaveS Yes, you can, to an extent. SONGORO I mean programs AFC DaveS Songoro: You want to download Macintosh programs to use on the Apple II? AFC Ted The winers of the OAS contest AFC DaveS That is something of an impossibility, unfortunately. SONGORO No, I want to dl programs for an Apple II using my Mac GuS Grafix Can we answer Songoro's question first, please... AFC DaveS Ah! You should be able to, Songoro. YarkoT You want to download Apple II programms with your Mac for your Apple II? SONGORO yes AFC DaveS You need to transfer those programs to a 3.5" 800K disk, then use a utility YarkoT Like GS shrink? DanW190 Download them, put them on an 800k Mac disk, then use a program called AFC DaveS like Apple File Exchange to transfer to a ProDOS disk. Alternatively, you AFC DaveS could use HFSlink or A2FX (both ProDOS8 programs for the Apple II) to AFC DaveS transfer the files from your Mac disk to a ProDOS disk. DanW190 A2FX to convert them. You might need to change the filtetypes to SYS SONGORO I can transfer but it seems that only text DanW190 It seems that only text? (?) Do you mean you get a textfile? (TXT)? AFL Scott Ok, Songoro... I think I can help... AFL Scott I do what you're trying to do alot... AFL Scott I simply download the program with the Mac, then I use Apple File Exchange AFL Scott to transfer the ARCHIVE... Remember, the program must have either SHK, GSK, AFL Scott GSHK, or ACU as the suffix in the filename you download... to a ProDOS formatted SONGORO ok AFL Scott floppy... Next, I use Shrinkit to extract the contents of the archive. SONGORO then AFL Scott Shrinkit will automatically skip any header that is present, but you AFL Scott may have to select "View all files", since the filetype of the file you AFL Scott transfer might not be exactly what it needs to be in order for ShrinkIt to AFL Scott "see" the file. AFL Scott Does that help? SONGORO Could I send you mail latter about it? AFL Scott Sure, I'd be happy to help you that way, too! This way, though, people AFL Scott get to share in the answer... some others might be having the same problem AFL Scott you are! GuS Grafix Scott are those instructions (as well as the reverse process..d/l on II transf AFL Scott But sure, send me Email and I'll do my best!;) GuS Grafix to Mac) available in the message board somewhere? SONGORO Thanks again I will try that YarkoT Scott I've had problems trying to download Mac files to use on a Mac LC AFL Scott Umm... I dunno... I think it works in reverse, but I don't know... I do know GuS Grafix This is beginning to sound like a question that's gonna crop up again and again DanW190 (echo echo echo echo) ;) AFL Scott that you have to change the type of the file to SIT or something like that... GuS Grafix kinda like 320 to 640 mode transfers :) DYA Jim1 Mike-ro-wave! :) SONGORO goob bye people! IC Gerry Gus, that question DOES crop up a lot..:) AFC Ted What happened to that folder, BTW? I was looking for it last night AFL Scott Hmm... LC transfers! GuS Grafix Yes, I think you're right, Scott...now that you mention it...SIT! SIT! I believ AFL Scott That's a new one on me.... Yarko, are you trying to download Mac files to AFL Scott work on your LC? AFL Scott If so, I dunno if I can help you because, I don't really know all that YarkoT Well the libraries LC. It was a self-unpacking SIT I think AFL Scott much about an LC and the specifics about LC compatibility/incompatibility. Vitesse [Of course, the local Apple dealer would know all that stuff...] :P AFC DaveS LOL! :) YarkoT It was only a game though My GS does all the work... Ahem. Dealer .. yeah right GuS Grafix What happened when you tried it Yarko? IC Gerry :) YarkoT I moved it to the mac with the file exchange no problem. AFL Scott Sometimes, though, you might have a program that expects one of the following.. YarkoT But I couldn't open the file AFL Scott Oh... that's different... AFC DaveS It got transfered as a plain text file or something, eh? Nuzz Why are you picking on the poor dealers John ;) YarkoT Kind of like having a SYS16 file with the type changed AFL Scott You need to change the filetype to the type that's self extracting... AFL Scott unfortunately, I don't know the type for that file. Vitesse Nuzz, I'm giving them the respect they deserve. :) AFL Scott You might try in the MCM forum for an answer.. or at least in the forum YarkoT On a mac what utility do I use? AFL Scott of origin. YarkoT Good Idea, Cross over the line. Nuzz At least the dealers are consistant, they all show the sliding Apple Demo AFL Scott I use ResEdit to edit the filetype on files I play with. AFC DaveS :) GuS Grafix To change filetype/creator? I use MacTools Deluxe YarkoT AGR we know who might have the answer. He He AFC Ted I saw one dealer running Twilight Vitesse ...in "Glorious B & W", Nuzz. DYA Jim1 that's neat :) GuS Grafix I think Norton Utils will do it too Yarko YarkoT Wow!!!!!!! YarkoT I saw many running Printshop GS Ack. AFL Scott We have the answers when they concern Apple II's alot of the time, though! :) AFC DaveS AGR...We Know More Than You Think! :) YarkoT I'll convince the libratrian to spend some green stuff on a utility program. DYA Jim1 Here Dave goes again ;) DYA Jim1 :) DanW190 LOL Mike!! It's a really cool demo, it says, "Check Disk Drive!!" :) YarkoT AGR We know More then _We_ think GuS Grafix :) MjM Art AGR...We Think Therefore We Am! DYA Jim1 AGR: We Know More Than Your Apple Dealer! Nuzz yea, if they have a disk drive connected DYA Jim1 here we all go again :) AFC DaveS AGR...We Know More When We Think! IC Gerry Yarko, better than Stickybear..:) AFC Ted AGR...Go Ahead, Ask us a Question :) YarkoT Doesn't everyone though DanW190 AGR: If we don't know it, no one should :) GuS Grafix Jim, THAT's not saying much :( AFC DaveS AGR...Make My Day, Punk! DYA Jim1 AGR...If you can't find it here, it doesn't exist. AFL Scott AGR... We can't talk about it. We'd crack! Vitesse AGR: Up Your Mac! YarkoT Hey that's my favorite. what do you think I type so bda DYA Jim1 AGR...no, the "Apple" does not include MAC! AFC DaveS Lemme see if I can bring you all up to date on the Art Guild. AFL Scott Great!!! AFL Scott :) DYA Jim1 I think it's true for a lot of dealers, Marian. :( AFC DaveS There isn't much new...The Art Guild Newsletter is in a kind of stasis DYA Jim1 I'm not saying there aren't good ones, but most aren't that great. DanW190 Last Year John Sculley got a 626% salary increase to 16.7 million a year.. YarkoT Death to dealers we need II soft Awareness AFC DaveS right now. The original editor has decided to sell his GS, and has not DanW190 ..gee, usually people who make that much money do something right.. go figure.. IC Gerry <--listening quietly to Dave..:) DYA Jim1 Bevan, huh Dave? :) AFC DaveS yet sent me the work he had done on the newsletter. GuS Grafix (Oh, I agree, I agree, Jim... I just meant it was kinda a "backhanded" ... AFC Tosh Yup:( GuS Grafix compliment, Jim AFC DaveS He shall go nameless, but his internet address is spinner@wpi.wpi.edu :) DYA Jim1 black humor AFC DaveS In the meantime, I've taken the liberty to release part II of the High Tech YarkoT WPI = Worcester Polytechnic Institute ? DYA Jim1 it pops up once in a while.. hope it doesn't offend anyone AFC Ted Yup AFC DaveS Graphics Effects tutorial...it sits in the New Files and Free Uploading GuS Grafix Ayup, Yarko AFC DaveS library as we speak. I hope we can break out the other tutorials and articles YarkoT Hey I might go there AFC DaveS that were in "limbo" due to this newsletter as a precursor to the big AFC DaveS Apple Festival thing AGR will be throwing ALLLL summer! :) DYA Jim1 Dave's brainchild AFC DaveS Ted, Tosh, Mjm...didn't you guys have something in the works for the AFC DaveS newsletter? AFC DaveS Well, you can release it at your whim :) AFC DaveS In the wake of the old Newsletter, we will probably restructure and do it AFC Tosh You mean I have to finish it now.! :) GuS Grafix (Yarko, Dave is an illustrious alumnus of WPI :) AFC DaveS as a more public project. Have some fun with HyperStudio :) AFC Ted Not really...just some nebulous ideas that I haven't finished yet AFC DaveS Ok...that's cool, then! :) MjM Art Yep, Dave. Nuzz Did everyone here know that Mike (MJM) is the author of all the ClipArt on our Nuzz ClipArt Plus disk AFC DaveS I knew that :) AFL Scott ditto! :) AFC DaveS In the coming days before the Festival, and after my lamely-scheduled YarkoT I don't think everyone knew. GuS Grafix No, I didn't....thanks for the heads up AFC DaveS Saturday Exam (should be a crime...), I hope to get my butt into gear and AFC DaveS derive an Art Guild activity plan for the coming months...as always, all your MjM Art Dave knows all! AFC DaveS comments are welcome! Requests for tutorials, ideas for pictures and activitie AFC DaveS will help make AGR _the_ fun place to be this summer! AFC DaveS Right, gang? AFC DaveS (cupping hand to ear) AFL Scott Right!!!!! AFC Ted Right, Dave IC Gerry Right!!!!! AFC Tosh Right Cheif Nuzz right, just don't drink the water AFL Scott :) AFC DaveS Perhaps now would be a good time to ask our noble leader to once again AFC DaveS announce the Summer Plan :) AFC DaveS (while I think of what else I have to say :) AFL Scott I hate to say this, but I have to leave a bit early tonight... Janet isn't MjM Art <---Clapping dutifully at the keyboard. AFL Scott feeling too well, so I'm doing laundry and the darn dryer is buzzing at me... AFC Tosh bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz AFC DaveS Not a problem, Scott! :) YarkoT Use a sound inet file to make it sound like a mac... AFL Scott Before I go... Congratulations to all the winners!!!!:) YarkoT Thanks Scott. AFL Scott Don't worry... It's nothing serious... IC Gerry Sigh of relief..:) AFC DaveS This summer, I hope to produce enough tutorials and ideas for making neat AFC DaveS pictures to "prime the pump" for the annual AGR Art Contest. AFC DaveS This year, I think we may be opening up the categories...I'd like to see AFC Ted We've got a bit of a drought in new files right now :( AFC DaveS interesting things created with all those scanners and digitizers that are AFC DaveS floating around now :) AFC DaveS It's fun and easy to create Art on the Computer! :) AFC Tosh Maybe we will see some original 3200 Art.....If any of the programs get AFC DaveS Yeah...a drought. AFC Tosh released! AFC DaveS That would be great! Nuzz so, who won the contest? AFC DaveS Bruce, Whizman GS, and... AFC DaveS ...who else? AFC DaveS I can't remember AFC Ted someone we all know and sorta like AFC Tosh :P AFC DaveS Tosh? Can't be him...we don't like him much at all :) YarkoT Tosh had second right. MjM Art Later, Vitesse! AFC Ted Oh yeah, him Nuzz That sounds like a ringer to me :) AFC Tosh HIM AFC DaveS ringer? AFC Tosh Dave was gonna enter..... AFC Ted I've met Tosh...he's no ding-dong AFC Tosh but he had to wash his hair. AFC Tosh Ok..I've got a real question YarkoT Someone here might have the answer AFC Tosh What 256 filetypes are there and is there a standard? AFC Tosh 256 color that is. AFC Tosh Cheappaint? AFC Ted I think both $C1 and APF can accomodate them AFC DaveS $C1 can accomodate them fer sure. AFC Tosh is there a standard Aux type? Nuzz regular APF file AFC Tosh really? AFC Tosh OK thanks....:) AFC Ted aux types define the method of packing Nuzz $C1 also. (It saves the palette info) AFC DaveS Well, that's about it for the Art Guild at this point. Expect a surge of AFC DaveS activity as summer kicks into high gear :) Nuzz getting a program to display it is another story though AFC Tosh Thats for sure, Mike. MjM Art Tosh: what paint program do you prefer for 640 mode? AFC Tosh PP!! AFC Tosh Except for animation...then its back to PWG MjM Art That was my next question! AFC Tosh I create in PP... AFC Tosh Then go back to PWG for creating the frames. MjM Art Do you use anything else in doing animations? Utilities of any kind? AFC Tosh Gold pastes in the exact spot you clip from! Thats the biggest advantage. AFC Tosh Not that I can think of.....ClipIt? ;) MjM Art :) AFC Tosh Clipit pastes to the corner doesn't it? Nuzz yep it does do that MjM Art And it does it very well indeed! AFC Tosh Thats fine for between programs......but for cells. AFC Tosh I will never stop using Gold just for the cut and paste. AFC Tosh ...But Platinum is just too good to use anything else..... AFC Tosh for most things. AFC Tosh You use it too MjM? MjM Art I like PP but not in 640 mode, cuz it's not that 320 pixel width. Nuzz what type of Utility would help with animation? AFC Ted Use the dither lock AFC Tosh Lock on! MjM Art Ahah! AFC Tosh Same as Gold then. AFC Tosh But 100 times better. AFC Ted I think it's great being able to turn it on and off AFC Tosh Utility...... AFC Tosh First question is what kind of animation...Paintworks? Nuzz creating animation AFC Tosh I guess thats the only kind there is...:( AFC Tosh Tweening was great in A& F.... MjM Art Right, Tosh. Tweening is an excellent feature. AFC Tosh It you could tell an object or set upa a pattern to repeat across a page. MjM Art But A&F had that every other pixel disease, which ruined it for me. AFC Tosh I guess you can use coordianates but then you have to think. AFC Tosh Yeah...It was hard to line things up. MjM Art I never waste time thinking :) MjM Art I found that you couldn't even line up on certain horiz. pixel positions. AFC Tosh I'll think about it Mike.....Short of asking for an entire application. :) Nuzz I meant a util to help in the craetin of the frames, not doing the animation AFC Tosh That you can do...but the even odd thing was bogus. MjM Art That's what I meant (I think ;) ) Nuzz I'd do something at leat for HCGS but those animation tools loom above AFC Tosh I hope they are helpful.....I'd hate to have them come out and then none AFC Tosh does anything with them Nuzz I'd jump right on it... I like being first :) AFC Tosh Rotate sucks in most Paint programs.....that would help animation alot. AFC Tosh It always distorts too much. AFC Ted That's mainly because of the pixel's aspect ratio, though MjM Art Right, Ted. But couldn't that be adjusted for? AFC Tosh Yes Ted....but it seems the programs don't even TRY to compensate. AFC Tosh GMTA AFC Tosh Needs one of them algorithm things. ;) AFC Ted I dunno...i think non-right angle rotations would be VERY hard to do AFC Tosh But even 90 degree turns are elongated too much AFC Ted True enough, Donald AFC Tosh Perhaps some kind of overlay utility using the clipboard... AFC Tosh Kind of like a transparancy copy to check movement. MjM Art It'd have to be an NDA too. AFC Tosh Click on and off. AFC Tosh What program have you used most, Mike? AFC Tosh For 640. MjM Art I use an oldie: 8/16 Paint. AFC Tosh Work OK? MjM Art Works fine except for one thing...saves in an obselete format :( AFC Tosh Ouch. AFC Ted PackBytes? MjM Art Think so, Ted. Is that $C0, auxtype 1? AFC Ted I think so AFC Tosh Got me...:) MjM Art But I convert over to APF with SHRConvert. AFC Ted Yes...just checked AFC Tosh If you have PP, put that dither lock on and leave it there. :) MjM Art I hear ya, Tosh, But............. AFC Tosh 4 screens at once......clip paste..:) MjM Art 8/16 is friendlier to my meager system (1.25 megs & 1 lonely disk drive). AFC Ted You only need 1 meg for PP AFC Tosh I started out that way...... MjM Art Right-o, Ted. But I have a habit (unbreakable one) of always running a RAM disk AFC Ted Though you can't have many docs open then AFC Tosh Memory would be the first, and cheapest way to upgrade.