Welcome to the Apple II Art & Graphics Forum Conference Room! ----------------------------------------------------------- Tonight's chat topic... DreamGrafix with the authors... No protocol! AGR... We've got the answers! ----------------------------------------------------------- AFL Scott Happy Holodeck... uh... Holidays everyone! AFL Scott BTW, I made a HUMONGOUS animation last night... DWS Steve How big? AFL Scott over 3 meg... all digitized color pictures. ODWS Jason Scott: Cool! DWS Steve Jason's going to fix the virtual memory player... right? :) ODWS Jason Right Steve ! :) AFL GaryJ Sounds neat, Scott! AFL Scott I didn't need it... I had to trim 50 frames, but what's a few frames among friends? Right? :) AFL Scott Good Evening... AFL Scott Welcome to the Apple II Art & Graphics Forum Conference for Friday, December 20, 1991. Happy Holidays, everyone! AFL Scott Tonight, we have a special guest for you! As you may know, DreamWorld Software has recently changed the face of Apple II Graphics by AFL Scott releasing their 3200 color paint program for the Apple IIGS: DreamGrafix! DreamGrafix is the first and only paint program for the Apple II to allow you to use all the Super Hi-Res Modes! More importantly, it's the first paint program that allows you to seamlessly create your AFL Scott masterpieces in 16, 256, or 3200 colors! It's an amazing piece of work...Something every Apple IIGS owner should have in their arsenal of power software! AFL Scott Tonight, we have the authors of DreamGrafix here to answer your questions! So, without Further delay, let me introduce you to DreamWorld Software's master programmers... Steve Chiang and Jason Andersen! AFL Scott Welcome to AGR, guys! ODWS Jason Thanks Scott! :) DWS Steve Thanks Scott. AFC Tosh How long did it take to write Dreamgrafix? AFL Scott Steve or Jason, why not tell us a little more about DreamGrafix and the power it can give Apple II users! AFL Scott After that, we'll open up the floor for some questions! DWS Steve DreamGrafix is the first and only paint program of its kind. It allows users to create pictures using the 16, 256 or 3200 colors in 320 mode, and 16 dithered colors in 640 mode. The GS is capable of displaying up to 256 colors DWS Steve per screen, without any additional hardware or software. Up to now, hardly any programs utilize this mode. DreamGrafix supports the 256 color mode, and takes multiple palette one step further, by allowing for up to 3200 colors per screen. AFL Scott Just a little testimonial... ODWS Jason DreamGrafix also has many powerful features that other paint programs for the Apple IIgs don't have. For example... ODWS Jason The support for external commands, where by the features of DreamGrafix can be increased just by getting an "external" and plopping it into the externals folder. ODWS Jason You get another icon on the command bar, and the limitations of externals are small, they are flexible enough to do about anything you'd want to do. ODWS Jason We have two externals in the works right now, one that allows you to edit pictures based on memory limits. For example you could set it to a picture 10 screens wide, and 10 screens tall on a 4 meg GS. This command right now is named bigscreen, the other one AFL Scott (That's huge!) ODWS Jason we're working on will digitize directly into the program, using an AST card or Enhanced AST video digitizer card. Panda4 Sounds cool! AFL Scott (Toes... watch out! :)) ODWS Jason We're also putting together the developers package for externals so that we can get 3rd parties to make things for the program. DWS Steve (Only greyscale!) DWS Steve (for now! :)) AFL Scott (LOL! :)) Panda4 :) ODWS Jason One possibility would be a GIF convertor, or other graphic importing. Or a music player, anything... :) Panda4 That is very much needed!! ODWS Jason I think we're the 1st program to allow an unlimited animation size! AFC Tosh Adding Music to animations would be outstanding! AFL Scott (You are!) AFL Scott Tell ya what... Lemme ask the first question then we'll get kicking with everyone's questions... AFC Tosh DreamGrafix took away my last use for Paintworks Gold (My old Love) :) AFL Scott Ok... So, Steve, or Jason... How much, and where can DreamGrafix be purchased? DWS Steve DreamGrafix is available directly from DreamWorld, or through Quality Computers for now, other mail order houses soon to follow. The list price for the program is $99.95, but we are running a special introductory offer. The intro price is $64.95 + s & h, which will be good until Jan. 15 (this has been extended a little). DWS Steve Our address and phone number is DreamWorld / P.O. Box 830 / Iowa City, IA 52244-0830 / 319-338-6491. If you order soon, you can still make Christmas! AFL Scott The floor is open for questions... no protocol! Panda4 When do you think the two externals will be ready and how will they be distributed? DWS Steve Middle to end of January. ODWS Jason They will be on our direct connect here on AO, [and] they will also be made available on other online services. ODWS Jason Or directly from us, for the price of a disk and postage. :) AFL Scott I'll tell you, Steve does an outstanding job here in support of his customers. I'm impressed with the attitude Dreamworld has. A first class outfit! DWS Steve Well, we'll see about that. We'll start including externals when they are are available on the original disks. Panda4 That is very high praise!! AFL Marty Absolutely right, Scott! DWS Steve Gee, thanks.. DWS Steve (if that's possible!) AFL GaryJ Are you guys open on Saturdays (for taking orders?) AFL GaryJ (like tomorrow?) DWS Steve Sure, or you can send the order via email. :) AFL Scott Steve or Jason... I've got another question... AFL Scott I was noticing in the title screen, there are areas that seem to be gradient filled... is this a hidden function of Dreamgrafix or is it more in the color/palette assignment? ODWS Jason For the holiday season we are open on Saturday from 12:00pm - 5:00pm DWS Steve Currently, there is no gradient fill. I'm not sure what part of the title AFL Scott Text, mainly, Steve. DWS Steve the screen you are talking about, but the colorizing was done in DreamGrafix AFL Scott You know the Dreamgrafix splash screen? DWS Steve The main text was done by altering the color assignment on each of the palettes AFL Scott That's what I thought... thanks! Oh... BTW... I've used every 3200 color paint program for the GS... (one is in perpetual beta). Right now, DreamGrafix has the best feature set, speed, and user interface, hands down. DWS Steve that correspond to the letters. A gradient fill is something in demand, which we are willing to code, if only we could find an algorithm. :) AFC Tosh Gradient fill is needed....but it must be a tough one....Platinum Paint does a pretty bad job on large areas. DWS Steve Gradients are a tricky thing, though, in 3200 colors. DWS Steve Thanks Scott. I love the interface on DreamGrafix... (That's biased of course) AFL Scott Personally, I think what you guys have made my GS do is a work of art in itself. I remember when you guys first announced this program and started in on getting a DC area. I was skeptical. But you guys proved me wrong. You're _good_. DWS Steve To answer Tosh's first question, DreamGrafix took about 1.5 years from beginning to end. ODWS Jason DreamGrafix is awesome (given biasness) :) Panda4 <-- thinks [it's] awsome and had to pay for it ;) ODWS Jason Panda: Thanks :) DWS Steve Thanks. ODWS Jason Panda4 Steve, have you gotten any of the graphics I used DG to edit, yet? AFL Scott So, tell me... Are there any new products in the Dreamworld think tank? DWS Steve Andy - I got one or two. What was the name of the one you liked the best? Panda4 Tori!! DWS Steve I'm thinking games. ODWS Jason There are new products in the works.... but we've taken a policy of keeping what they are secret until shipping time so there isn't so much vapor.. :) Doomsday Ah. The old "Apple's IIgs Policy" as opposed to the "Apple Mac Policy". DWS Steve We're learning from our mistakes. :) AFL GaryJ I've been a die hard Deluxe Paint II person all my IIGS life. Will I find DreamGraphics to be easy to use? (It sounds like it fits the bill as far as features go) AFC Tosh I think so Gary.....DP II users love their brush modes and DG has them. Panda4 Gary I have used DPII and DG both are very nice. DWS Steve Gary - We took a hard look at PaintWorks Gold, Deluxe Paint II, and Platinum Paint when we were writing DreamGrafix. The one thing I think you will learn to love about DreamGrafix is the fact that you can draw underneath the tool bar and the fill will fill the offscreen areas, so you won't have to click the fill 3 times to fill the screen. Also, the interface gives you more flexibility because it allows you to see the WHOLE horizontal section of the screen, which Deluxe Paint II, PaintWorks Gold, and Platinum Paint don't really allow you to do with the tools on the screen. AFL GaryJ Yes, I like the brush mode on DPII. AFC Tosh .....and it will fill beyond the fatbits and menubar too! Panda4 The thing that I love most is being able to put the tools on the command bar where I want them. AFL GaryJ That's nice. (Fill filling offscreen areas) AFL GaryJ True AFC Tosh Moving the Tools is way cool.....I have mine arranged just the way I want them. Panda4 GMTA, Tosh :) DWS Steve Reminder: once the tools are set up, you can use the keyboard equates to access them. Just learn which key corresponds to which tool. JP1 Steve, Jason: Have you been able to try DG w/ Sys. 6, yet? Any problems? DWS Steve John - Yes. DreamGrafix works perfect with System 6.0. AFL GaryJ It sounds great. JP1 Outstanding! BCS Frank Way to go! AFC Tosh Great. GS ERIC When it comes out that is :) DWS Steve There is one problem with CloseView NDA, though, because it requires the shadowing memory that DreamGrafix requires. Panda4 Will you be working on a work around for that? LindaW19 Cartooners can use DPII brushes as 'actors'. Does anyone know if I can import DG brushes and pictures into Cartooners?? My daughter uses Cartooners a _lot_ AFC Tosh America Online Software screws up that memory too. :( DWS Steve We've talked to Dave Lyons, and he'll help us find a solution, if there is one. Panda4 If not I'll just deactivate the da and the paint :) ODWS Jason Sorry Linda :( At this time, DG brushes cannot be imported into Cartooners... via loading in from disk. DWS Steve Linda - I've never used Cartooners, but if it supports the cut, copy and paste you should be able to cut a brush and paste it into Cartooners. LindaW19 Well, the doc's specify Deluxe Paint brushes. DWS Steve A Deluxe Paint brush may just be a Apple preferred picture. We'll look into it. LindaW19 Thanks, Steve. DWS Steve Linda - If the brush format is a brush, then DreamGrafix may already work with it. AFL Scott Tonight, St. Wozniak has a gift for some lucky America Online Apple IIGS owner! St Wozniak That's owners. Plural. Drib Wow! do we get to sit on his lap???? AFL Scott St. Woz is going to give away a copy of DreamGrafix to a winner... Panda4 Wow really St. Woz!!!! Doomsday Ohlala... Drib cool! AFL Scott Hang on... we're going to "roll" off for it in a few minutes! AFC Tosh He's a Saint! BCS Frank oooOOOOooo.... gonna be a grand Christmas for somebody! LindaW19 I've been nice! AFC JohnC hey I' ready....:) BCS Frank I -am- nice! GS ERIC I don't know if this has been asked, but what are some other advantages over... Platinum paint that DG has besides 3200???? Panda4 It also does 256 colors, Eric! Drib (or some OTHER paint program :) AFC Tosh 256 Mode Eric! Its my new favorite....and many programs support it. Like HyperStudio. ODWS Jason DreamGrafix loads and saves many formats... BCS Frank Yeah.. just saw the Porche demo in HS 3.0... real nice. :) AFC Tosh I'd like to see more programs in general support 256 colors. ODWS Jason It loads all Apple recognized formats, including some funny formats which are not recognized like those french .3201s Panda4 Yes it would be nice if HCGS supported 256. DWS Steve DreamGrafix makes the perfect complement to HyperStudio. AFL GaryJ What formats can it save in? ODWS Jason it also saves in 12 different formats.. Including Apple Preferred so that it would be possible to take pictures into other programs (not that you would need to) St Wozniak One format for each day of Christmas. :) DWS Steve Because HyperStudio will support 256 color pictures... Panda4 ROTFL The Twelve Formats of Christmas!! ODWS Jason Eric: Many advantages over Platinum Paint... including 4 sizes of fat-bits and the fact that all commands work in fatbits the user interface is better in my biased opinion also. I also prefer our style of mixing colors (like PWG)... Then the externals commands capabilities, and the ability to compile very large animations GS ERIC Thanks, this info is great St Wozniak <== has lots of fat bits Drib :) Panda4 It would be nice if you added HSV, though. AFL Scott Ok... here we go... AFL Scott All paying users with an Apple IIGS's...please, type "//roll", (minus quotes), now! AFL Scott The closest two people to 6 with out going over will win! OnlineHost Doomsday rolled 2 6-sided dice: 4 3 OnlineHost GM Stalker rolled 2 6-sided dice: 4 4 OnlineHost LindaW19 rolled 2 6-sided dice: 4 1 OnlineHost Drib rolled 2 6-sided dice: 3 6 OnlineHost Doomsday rolled 1 6-sided die: 5 Doomsday There we go :) OnlineHost ODWS Jason rolled 2 6-sided dice: 1 2 AFL Scott Ok.. forget it.. No winners. OnlineHost BCS Frank rolled 2 6-sided dice: 2 3 Drib WHAT???????????? NO WINNERS?!?!?! Doomsday I believe Linda qualified, Scott. BCS Frank :) AFL Scott I'm just kidding! :) Drib I rolled a 6 and a 3! OnlineHost GS ERIC rolled 2 6-sided dice: 1 4 LindaW19 I think so, too! though I'm thoroughly confused Drib :) St Wozniak No problem. I'll just keep the DG for myself. AFL Scott Linda and Eric... you each have won a copy of DreamGrafix! Please send your full name and address to DWS Steve St Wozniak Congrats Linda and Eric. GS ERIC ME???? LindaW19 Really?? That's tremendous! LindaW19 :) St Wozniak Please send me your name/address in EMail. BCS Frank Congrats, Linda, Eric! Panda4 Congrats!! Eric, I guess you'll get intot graphics now ;) LindaW19 Which one do I e-mail? AFL Scott Ok.. That said... Let's start up with some more questions for Steve and Jason... AFL Scott Linda, DWS Steve. AFC Tosh What other Externals do you think are good ideas Steve and Jason? There is a boxmaker in the new HS that is cute. St Wozniak There is only one St. Wozniak. GS ERIC You bet!!!! DWS Steve Other externals... I'd like to work on a GIF converter... and an import external command for PrintShop Graphics, and other file formats. Panda4 Those are very badly needed Steve, I have complained that the GS has not had a really good GIF converter for years. AFC Tosh The Print Shop one would be popular I think. DWS Steve A possible external would be one to load GIFs in directly. DWS Steve There is another external in the works which would allow you to print pictures in full 3200 colors. But this is still an idea, and has not been tested yet. DWS Steve Question: Does the Quickie NDA scan images to the clipboard? AFC Tosh Printing is always tough..... AFC Ted I think so DWS Steve Like I mention in the manual? Panda4 You can paste it there, Steve. AFC Ted cut n paste DWS Steve Good. I'd hate to think that I lied. :) JP1 Andy's right, Steve. Quickie uses the Clipboard 'conventionally.' Panda4 You didn't but I have problems with the NDA at very bad times :I DWS Steve Does the Quickie NDA work okay with DreamGrafix? AFC Tosh I haven't tried it yet.....I will. Panda4 Most of the time. Sometimes it just freezes up just like the software. Panda4 I don't remember what slot mine's in . DWS Steve Any other questions? BCS Frank What kind of documentation will DreamGrafix have? DWS Steve The DreamGrafix package consists of a three ring binder, a 100+ page manual AFC Tosh It has a great manual Frank (that needs an index ;)) DWS Steve which needs an index... and the program disk. DWS Steve I'll be adding an index and a quick ref card soon. BCS Frank 3-ring? Way to go! An expandable maual for an expandable program! :) DWS Steve We'll mail current users the extra sheets if they request it. :) AFC Tosh Frank, there is Online help for every tool built into the program too. DWS Steve Any other questions? AFC Ted What's the best way to figure out what colors to put in which palette? DWS Steve There is a cool color editor called the Mini-color editor. It pops up on the main menu bar, and is active as you edit the picture. There is a color finder similar to the PaintWorks Gold color finder, to flicker the colors on the screen, or locate the color in the palette. Panda4 I love that it make editing 3200 very easy. AFC Tosh As needed Ted. When I draw I start with one palette then add them as the need arises.....there is no need to create them in advance. AFC Ted You don't have to pre-plan them? AFC Ted Goody! AFC Tosh For 3200 conversions they are there already.....you just edit them as needed. DWS Steve The mini color editor allows you to edit the RGB values of a color right on the screen. Actually, the mini-color editor is on the DreamGrafix command bar, not the system menu bar. AFC Tosh Would a little view window be possible in the main color editor? To see your pic change? Panda4 One thing that I like that you guys did with the mini editor is leaving room to expand. DWS Steve Tosh - Yes. We realized that there was no view window after we designed the editor. DWS Steve I was contemplating a different color editor to allow the viewing of more more palettes and part of the screen, very similar to the mini-editor, except it would allow you to edit the colors, move them around, etc.But I was hoping the mini-color editor would solve those problems. AFC Tosh Yes....viewing more palettes would be nice for dragging colors. :) DWS Steve Yes, that's what I thought. AFC Tosh I hope to see folks making more original multipalette pics in the future. :) AFC Ted Me too ODWS Jason Are there any more questions? Panda4 I'm working on it Tosh :) DWS Steve Our future products will contains multiple palette pictures. :) Panda4 I wonder why???? ;) AFC Ted Can you use multiple palettes in 640 mode? St Wozniak How hard is it to create original multipalette pics? BCS Frank Are you including a good sized gallery of pics with DreamGrafix? ODWS Jason AFC Ted: Currently, the DG doesn't support this, but it would be an easy external possibility .. :) DWS Steve Currently there are no multiple palette pictures in 640 mode. It is possible Panda4 Look at it this way Woz. You are creating several pictures close together... with different palettes. AFC Tosh Easy St......Just lay out the sky area (for example) with its own set of colors. St Wozniak Easy for you... difficult for me. :) DWS Steve There are pictures included with DreamGrafix. ODWS Jason St Woz: I guess the picture has to have the contrast of color vertically oriented for it to be easy to set up the multiple zones :) AFC Tosh Andy said it the best....Its like having 2 or 3 or more pics on the same screen. BCS Frank Hmmm.. might be useful to have some step-by-step examples. Panda4 At least that's the way I think of it :/ DWS Steve That's one thing I want to add, but I'm not much of an artist. St Wozniak It sure would be nice if someone did a tutorial. ODWS Jason Tosh: That's a good description St Wozniak Perhaps one of the Art Guild dudes. :) DWS Steve Maybe Tosh can do it! St Wozniak Whaddya know! That's exactly the person I was thinking of! AFC Tosh The biggest thing to remember is that you don't have to USE all those colors. Panda4 Are you talking about that Donald Macintosh guy? BCS Frank Nahh, Tosh is too busy. :) AFC Tosh :) AFC Tosh PLEASE!!!!!!!!! thats McIntosh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! St Wozniak We could probably find someone to help him. St Wozniak Right Andy? :) AFC Tosh Sheesh! AFC SteveB :) Panda4 OK. I'll not forget :) ODWS Jason hehe St Wozniak You spelled his name wrong. You have to help now. :D AFC Tosh :) AFC Ted Like the apple, not the Apple Panda4 LOL!!! Everyone knows my spelling is the pits! AFC Tosh You and the rest of creation......now that one of those is on EVERYONE'S desk. ODWS Jason Any more questions about DreamWorld or DreamGrafix? AFC Ted Can't think of any AFC Tosh Thanks for all the info guys! St Wozniak Thanks Jason and Steve! Panda4 Great job guys!! LindaW19 I'll have _plenty_ of questions after I get it! Thanks, DW! BCS Frank Thanks for the products too! :) DWS Steve Sure... can Linda please leave me a phone number... AFC Tosh AFC Tosh recommends it highly! DWS Steve Thanks guys.. ODWS Jason I want to thank everyone for showing up here tonight, it has been fun! St Wozniak That line never works for me, Steve. :) AFC Ted Thank you for coming here and answering all our questions AFC Tosh Congratulations on being the FIRST and Only! ;) DWS Steve St Woz... well, it worked for me.. :) ODWS Jason Does anyone have any ideas for new products they would like to see for our beloved IIgs's? LindaW19 Virus protection init that scans automatically! BCS Frank Bi-lingual word processor. LindaW19 I don't want to use Prosel as my launcher. Panda4 I think you have some excellent ideas in the new products folder. AFL Scott Thanks for coming tonight, DWS dudes! :) AFL Scott And thanks to St. Woz for the lovely gifts! ODWS Jason Thanks for setting this up Scott :) DWS Steve Thanks Scott, and all of you for coming. St Wozniak It was my pleasure! ODWS Jason Thanks St Woz! AFC Tosh Re: New products....keep working on adding sound to art and animations... and make it really easy for dummies. LindaW19 Yes! Panda4 Like me!! AFC Tosh Point and Click stuff. DWS Steve And a true color fill... AFC Tosh When I show art to people it would be nice to Easily just click on a sound/music peice too. AFL Scott BTW, I can think of a way to do a true gradient color fill, Steve... it's just slower than molasses because you have to calculate the nearest color for every pixel in the fill range... but if you used a lookup table generated as each color is "made" it can work a little faster. The only other solution is to keep the indices of closest colors ordered. That's not cool, though since remapping has to be done each time a new color is added or deleted. DWS Steve Yup... slow fill, but it'll alleviate headaches on multiple color pictures. BCS Frank How about implementing semi-transparent overlays? Each separately movable? AFC Tosh The PP gradient does a terrible job on large areas.... repeating patterns. ODWS Jason Frank: Do you mean like simulating multiple colored pieces of cellophane on top of a picture ? BCS Frank Yes, only each image would have separate transparency settings... I could move merge, blend and then freeze them into one composite image. St Wozniak Frank... like watercolor in GraphicWriter III? BCS Frank I fear the programming would be drastic. AFC Tosh Sounds like that gets into an "object oriented" system Frank. Like TopDraw LindaW19 <-- in over my head. I've only graduated from Bo Monroe's Pixel Talk... DWS Steve Bo Monroe is a good artist! LindaW19 But thanks for all the info and especially the prize! Panda4 Linda :) BCS Frank Hmmm... right, Don... move and fade and blend objects. Panda4 And so is Donald McIntosh. There did I do it right that time? AFC Tosh Perfect. Panda4 :) AFC Tosh Frank I've tried some overlays by hand (with a pattern) but it's tough with the resolution we work in.....looks like a checkerboard overlay. :) BCS Frank I just like the idea of manipulating layers of mylar... with the grid patterns you'd get lots of moire patterns. Panda4 BTW, in case anyone is interested. I got latest ShowPic Beta. It looks like it will not be long before it will be released. AFC Ted Good! AFC Tosh Does it understand Dreamgrafix formats? ;) BCS Frank Good things are happeningfor the 6502 crew! :) DWS Steve No, it won't understand DG format, until we send him the info.. :) Soon! We have to write it up yet... we've been really busy... AFC Tosh Cool. I like ShowPic. DWS Steve But DreamVoir does it all... :) Once we fix the bugs... Panda4 Dave is also working on adding the ZipChip hooks into LaunchPad. BCS Frank Odd thought... ZIP-gs doesn't affect 3200 color? DWS Steve Our 3200 code is speed independent... AFC Tosh Not at all Frank Panda4 It doesn't Frank! ODWS Jason Thanks to everyone again, but its getting late, and I have to be going. ODWS Jason Good Nite, and merry X-mas AFC Tosh Thanks Jason, Steve.