The Apple II Art & Graphics Forum Conference: April 26, 19991 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Scanners and Digitizers --------------------------------------------------------------- Tonights topic is scanners and digitizers! AGR... We've got the answers. ------------------------------------------------------------------ AFL Scott Howdy, Harry! AFL Scott How are you? HErwin Pretty good, Scott. Question: Is Quickie or LightningScan better? AFL Scott It's not that easy, Harry... since they both use the same scanner head... AFL Scott I'd have to say right now that Quickie is better. Additionally, they are Vitesse #*^) AFL Scott active in the IIGS Market and I know for a fact that John Pothier is very AFL Scott active... :) Vitesse = John Pothier! :) HErwin I'll be buying a Mac LC shortly and keeping the IIGS. HErwin Can Q. support both? AFL Scott Yup. :) HErwin Thunderscan offered me a discount as an old customer. AFL Scott The reason I pick Vitesse over Thunderware is really quite simple... AFL Scott support. They Vitesse HErwin...we offer the best software and support; sorry we can't do anything... AFL Scott have the best support in the business right now, in my opinion... Vitesse with your Thunderscan. AFL Scott Additionally, the software is constantly evolving. They don't sit back and AFL Scott rake in the bucks without improving. That's why _I_ like Vitesse over AFL Scott Thunderware. Of course, that's just my opinion, but I know John and he's AFL Scott straight up. HErwin What's the list price for a Q. for the IIGS plus Mac LC? AFL Scott Oh... The Quickie won't work with the LC... I thought you meant Quantum when AFL Scott you said Q... :) AFL Scott Sorry! Vitesse The Quickie list is $299; most discounters sell it for about $195. AFL Scott BUT... AFL Scott You CAN use the head interchangably with the LightningScan. HErwin I understand all the SCSI scanners use interchangable hardware. AFL Scott Lemme run the macros really quickly... AFL Scott Good Evening! The topic for tonight, AFL Scott April 26, 1991 is Scanners and Digitizers! AFL Scott Welcome to the world of Apple II Graphics! AFL Scott Welcome to the Apple II Art & Graphics forum's AFL Scott conference! AFL Scott Before we get started tonight, I'd like to remind AFL Scott everyone that the time to enter our OAS: Design Your AFL Scott Own Ad Contest is this weekend! That's right! Time AFL Scott is running out! Be sure to get your entry in by no AFL Scott later than 11:59 on the 30th of April! AFL Scott Scanners and Digitizers. You've all probably seen AFL Scott a picture or two with these devices. Suffice it AFL Scott to say that some can produce very nearly photographic AFL Scott quality images on your Apple IIGS. Some you have to AFL Scott work harder with to get acceptable results. Just what do AFL Scott you have to do to get the most out of your scanner or AFL Scott digitizer? We'll try to answer that and many more AFL Scott of your questions tonight! AFL Scott Harry... HErwin Yo AFL Scott Quickie isn't SCSI. Vitesse ...nor is it scuzzy. :) AFL Scott It's serial with a special interface card. :) GS Maniac Are there currently any COLOR scanner's available for a Apple IIGS? AFC Tosh Does it matter? Vitesse GSM...no there aren't...at this time. AFL Scott Not right now... :) HErwin Are any of the IIGS software packages SCSI-compatible? AFL Scott Unfortunately, no.. however a little mouse is rumored to be working on a GS Maniac How about Greyscale 3200 color scans? AFL Scott Impossible, GS Maniac.. The GS can only produce 16 shades of gray... now with Vitesse The GS will only show 16 greys...including black & white. AFL Scott some delay tricks, you can trick it into thinking it can do 32, but it's really not AFL Scott that reliable. HErwin What is the Lightingscan interface? TW said they use a card in the IIGS. GS Maniac I've been messing around with 3200 color stuff. Amazing. Just wondering... AFL Scott Serial, Harry.. it's on a seperate card, just like the Quickie interface. HErwin Does TW use a serial, non-SCSI interface in the Mac? AFL Scott TW? Thunderware? AFC DaveS BTW, what kind of data transfer rate can you get out of the Quickie card, AFC DaveS John? HErwin Yep AFL Scott Got me, Harry... I think they use an adapter of sorts, but I'm not too sure. AFL Scott Anyone else know? Vitesse What do you mean, Dave: "transfer rate"? GS Maniac Can you scan a picture edit and add a title within 10 min.? (Quality I mean) AFC Tosh What would be the advantage of it being SCSI? Any? AFC DaveS Vitesse: Serial bit rate. Just curious. HErwin SCSI is supposed to be 3 megabits per second. Vitesse It's faster than my 10 MHz Zip GSX, if that's what you mean. AFL Scott Yeah, Maniac... you sure can... it just depends on what kind of title you AFL Scott want to add and what paint program you use! ;) AFC Ted And how fast you are with it:) AFL Scott Dave... it's pretty quick.. I concur with John... the driver is really tightly AFL Scott coded. GS Maniac I have a Term Paper coming up and I'm getting a Quickie... Vitesse The software waits for the GS. AFL Scott That's true. :) Vitesse ...even at 10 MHz. HErwin OK, what I'm learning tells me I'm best off with a Quickie for the GS, and DYA Jim John; I'm curious, what good are 300 and 400 dpi scans on the GS? I'm not DYA Jim familiar at all with the Quickie; so I don't know how it saves its scans.. HErwin Something else for the Mac. Probably a total of about $500. GS Maniac Vitesse: What's new with you guys? I know off the subject but... Vitesse 300 and 400 DPI scans are the "next to" and "most" detailed ones. AFL Scott Maniac... It saves them in Apple Preferred format. DYA Jim but how do you get the GS to use all 300-400 dpi? Vitesse I'd ask (rhetorically): What good are 100 and 200 DPI scans. GS Maniac Scott: Hmm. AFL Scott Trickery, Jim! Pure unadulterated Trickery! :) AFC DaveS Jim: Personally, I use 300-400 if I draw something really small, but want it DYA Jim Ok, then what I mean is there any way to use the 300 dpi? AFC DaveS nice and big on the screen. DYA Jim (to produce very detailed printouts) Vitesse The data are "manipulated" through a diabolically clever system of gears Vitesse and levers. DYA Jim or maybe I have a total misconception on the resolution modes :) Vitesse ;) AFL Scott You're talking the full res sorta like a raw data file? DYA Jim yeah.. AFL Scott Resolution != DPI. AFC Tosh Think of it as 4 different scanning sizes Jim....400 scans a small area and AFC DaveS Maybe so, Jim :) The Quickie software doesn't save the raw stuff like you AFL Scott No, not really, Jim. AFC Tosh blows it up big. Vitesse Jim, when the scan is made and out on the screen, it's the same as if you'd DYA Jim or in some format you could use to print it in the greater detail.. AFC DaveS might get with flatbed scanner software on other machines. Vitesse drawn it in a paint program: 100% useful. HErwin Is 400 DPI in both directions? GS Maniac Can you have a camera put a picture in the background? (ex: Finder background) DYA Jim Oh.. I see now Tosh.. AFL Scott No... only in the Y axis, Harry. DYA Jim not what I had originally thought at all :) Vitesse Harry: Don't follow "in both directions." AFC Tosh :) I had the same questions before I got one. Vitesse Oh... AFC DaveS Maniac: You mean with something like a Video Overlay Card? Video in the AFC DaveS background? Vitesse Actually, we "toss out" 75% of the vertical detail, because the GS can't use it GS Maniac DaveS: Yeah. Something like that... DYA Jim Yeah, I thought that.. I was just curious if there existed any means to DYA Jim save the 300-400 dpi in a special format saving the rest of the resolution not AFC DaveS Maniac: I dunno...the VOC is capable of such things, but I'm not sure whether Vitesse ...Now if the GS had _square_ pixels... :) DYA Jim able to be displayed on screen, so, say, you could print the scan at 300dpi.. AFC DaveS the VOC is capable of blasting stuff to the screen under the Finder...I don't AFC DaveS have a VOC, unfortunately. AFC Ted ...it'd be a mac ;) DYA Jim Guess I'm thinking too much like a Mac. ;) DYA Jim ah well :) Vitesse Actually, it'd be a SuperMac. GS Maniac One more thing... Anyone know if there's a 3200 color paint prog. yet? AFC Ted (I think Marty's slapping hand is getting itchy) AFC DaveS Maniac: Tosh 'n I are beta-testing Emerald Vision, which is a 3200 color paint AFC DaveS program. It's not done yet, really. Hard to say how it will really be. AFL Scott I just wish I could get my copy!!!!!! AFC DaveS Haven't gotten yours yet, Scott? :( GS Maniac Daves: Serious? How is it and when will it be ready for us? AFC Tosh I'd say it was HALF way there......YOu can draw a picture. But it takes a AFC Tosh little work. :) AFC DaveS Maniac: Hard to answer either question...it's not really finalized...not all AFC DaveS features work...and Tosh is right on the money with his comments. GS Maniac Can you edit existing 3200 pics you already have? AFL Scott I haven't got my copy of the beta yet at all. :( AFC Tosh Yes , you could. AFC DaveS You can load them...editing is a bit tough. The cool thing is that it will AFC DaveS be full color editing, or close to it. Nuzz But, does it have a cool "About Box" :) AFC DaveS It has some clever programming in it. GS Maniac Can't wait for that! (I'm really into graphics etc...) AFC Tosh :) AFL Scott Great, Maniac!! :) You're in the right place! AFC DaveS Vitesse: When you throw out that 75% of vertical information on a scan, is the AFC DaveS part that is kept influenced by the Aspect Ratio? Doesn't seem to be to me, AFC DaveS but maybe I'm wrong... Vitesse Dave, in True Grey, the smoothing algorithm overwhelms the aspect ratio. Vitesse In "line art" mode, though, you can keep all the vertical data. GS Maniac Well yall... Hasta la vista... Me quiro me Apple. Later yall. AFL Scott Explain "overwhelms"? Vitesse Set Aspect Ratio to a small number (100, maybe); you'll see. Looooong image. AFC Tosh True Dave....I think I keep mine at about 800. AFC DaveS I notice that if you adjust aspect ratio to something that will hopefully AFC DaveS keep proportions between drawing and screen image, you will get stairstepping AFC DaveS (fuzzy, smoothed, to be sure :) ever few scanlines. I keep mine where AFC DaveS Tosh does: 800. It comes out tall, but all the info is there and I can use AFC DaveS some image processing package to rescale without artifacts. Vitesse "Give us square pixels, and we'll move the world." AFL Scott FYI... most computers in the world don't have square pixels. They have pixels DYA Jim 1:1 aspect ratio :) AFL Scott that are around 1.2 aspect ratio. Vitesse Seriously...the rectangular aspect ratio of the GS's pixels demanded _many_ Vitesse compromises. AFL Scott The only square pixels I can think of are 640x480 VGA and Macintosh. AFL Scott Not in my practice, John... it's just something you get used to, I guess. AFC DaveS I understand, John...Quickie is really great! AFL Scott I suppose if I wrote printer drivers, I'd have to massage some data but even AFL Scott then it's not that big a deal, IMO. AFL Scott :) Vitesse Scott, if you wrote printer drivers, I'd be talking to ya'! AFL Scott So, anyone have any more questions about the topic? AFL Scott I have a small announcement, if you all don't mind me blowing my horn for a AFL Scott moment... AFC DaveS Go for it, Scott! What can we do...leave? :) AFL Scott :) AFC SteveB LOL! :) AFL Scott I've found three small bugs in Allison dealing with color selection and AFL Scott dithering that I've fixed. This fixed version might be released. I haven't AFL Scott checked with the publisher on it, though. The bugs are non-fatal and Vitesse Only 5 legs, Scott? :) AFL Scott only one really makes any difference in picture quality, however, the AFL Scott difference in quality is noticable in some cases. AFC Tosh How did you find them Scott? AFL Scott Additionally, this version is about 400 bytes smaller. AFL Scott Just doing research, Donald. That's all. :) Vitesse 400 bytes! Data compression unrivalled!! :) AFC DaveS :) AFC Tosh :) AFL Scott I got rid of some dummy code I put in the first version to confuse people AFL Scott who tried to disassemble it. Vitesse Scott, isn't it a relief to find one's own bugs...instead of someone else Vitesse doing it? AFC DaveS Heheh...love that dummy code :) AFL Scott Yup! It's also good that all three were non-fatal. We've not had a single AFL Scott fatal bug reported. That's a testament to great testing by the beta testers! AFC Tosh Scott re: Zip and Allison. They seem a bit unfriendly. AFL Scott In what way? AFC Tosh Have others found this? AFL Scott No... but I'll listen... Smullen I got a question, mainly for Vitesse, but other developers too. Is there any AFC Tosh It seems to be related to loss of signal. Smullen reason, other than market, that full bed 3200 color software can't be written AFL Scott In fact, we used a Zip with Allison at Applefest, so I'm interested in hearing AFL Scott about it. Smullen for the Apple IIGS? AFL Scott In what way, specifically Tosh? AFC Tosh I'll try to narrow it down and let you know. Vitesse No, Smullen, I don't think so. Scott is the expert, tho. Scott? AFL Scott Are you talking about multicolor lines in monochrome mode? AFL Scott Explain "full bed" ? AFC DaveS More than three people having fun at the same time? Smullen Full bed= not hand pulled, looks like a photocopier. AFC DaveS (nyuk nyuk) AFL Scott You mean scanner... yeah, that's possible. But you must remember that 3200 AFL Scott colors is just a number. Most "3200" color pictures contain far fewer than AFL Scott 3200 colors. The act of making a 3200 color scanner is primarily a software AFL Scott exercise. We've effectively done that with Jonah Stich's Allison 3200.' Smullen yes, I just want something like the 24bit scanners on the Macintrash DYA Jim Plus, sizes larger than the dimentions of the screen would be hard to do. AFC DaveS Yeah, you'd have to recompute everytime you scrolled left and right :( AFL Scott Well, to tell you the truth, SMullen (what's the "S" stand for, btw), any Smullen Does Allison work with external "full bed" scanners? AFL Scott flatbed would probably be a 24 bit scanner whose raw data is massaged into Smullen Scott- Smullen is my last name. AFL Scott a 3200 color format. AFL Scott No, it doesn't :) AFC Ted Allison is dedicated to the Enhanced Vision Plus AFC DaveS What were you thinking of using 24-bit flatbed scanner for, Scott? Smullen Is there anyway (jonah?) to convert 3200 color GS pics back to GIF? AFL Scott If they've got less than 256 colors than sure. If they have more than 256 AFL Scott colors, than sure, too! :) A neat trick... AFL Scott SuperConvert can save files in TIFF format... It can also load Allison raw AFC DaveS (but if they have exactly 256 colors, then sure again! :) Smullen Scott- using what program? AFL Scott data... so.. you simply load the raw image, do a quick process, then save it AFL Scott as an RGB TIFF. You can then take this file to a Mac, and boy! You get AFL Scott great pictures!!! Photographic and just as good as any Mac Scanner... only AFL Scott thing is, you used a GS! :) AFC DaveS :) AFL Scott Smullen..., It hasn't been written, yet. :( AFC DaveS Does SuperConvert load 3200 pictures? AFL Scott However, it is possible. AFL Scott Yup! AFC DaveS And it saves GIF89 too? Smullen dave- yes but remapps them to only 16 colors :-) AFC DaveS Bleah! AFL Scott No...GIF87a... AFL Scott Smullen.. it has multipalette modes so you can get up to 256 colors on the AFL Scott screen at one time. DYA Jim I wish we had a GIF89 converter for the GS.. AFC DaveS Oh well. What about John MacLean's TGE library disk? Could you conceivably AFL Scott It's under the Get Other button in the Remap image dialog. AFC DaveS convert from 3200 to GIF and retain funky info? Not sure why one would really DYA Jim I got a mac GIF file the other day that looked good, but then I discovered it DYA Jim was GIF89 and I couldn't use it :( AFC DaveS want to, though, unless you were working with original 3200 created art. AFL Scott So, you can take a 3200 color picture and load it, process it for 256 colors AFL Scott then save it as a GIF. My main gripe with SuperConvert is the color dithering AFL Scott can destroy some information and make the resulting picture look grainy. Smullen jim- if you change it (in a WP) to "GIF87a" then SHR convert WILL load it. AFC DaveS Well, you could send Jason your color routines, Scott! ;))) AFL Scott Dave... I've not seen a library disk for TGE, yet. They aren't released. AFL Scott To the best of my knowledge that is. Smullen Vitesse- Would you be interested in software for a full bed scanner? AFL Scott :) Vitesse For which scanner? Smullen Considering you've done both scanner work and Foriegn hardware (laser printers) DYA Jim Smullen-- it won't choke on it? Smullen to the GS. Smullen no. But GIF 3200 does.. DYA Jim I'll have to try it :) Vitesse Do you mean would we be interested in developing the software? Smullen yes. DYA Jim I wonder if TGE won't choke on it either.. hope not, as I'd like to do a DYA Jim 256 color conversion if possible AFL Scott Smullen... Flatbed scanners are nice, but you have to have TONS of memory AFL Scott for them toe useful. AFL Scott to be, rather! Smullen got tons... Vitesse Not until there are FB scanners _much_ less expensive than Apple's. AFL Scott Remember, at 300 dpi, (300 pixels per inch) 8 bits per pixel at 8 inches is AFC DaveS I don't see much utility in having a flatbed scanner on the current GS, myself. DYA Jim Apple's scanner is a rip. AFL Scott pretty intense... now add the vertical resolution and you can have pictures FredChopin What is a good flatbed scanner that doesn't cost a whole lot? AFL Marty 19200 bits Smullen Dave, I bought a scanner on the basis that I could keep Sysops happy with my AFL Scott that can take up over 50 meg. Smullen ULs, but they don't even want 320*200*16 color pics... DYA Jim The only way to keep sysops happy is to get a disk of DYA Jim 640*480*256 or at least 320*200*256's and just go around uploading copies DYA Jim of the same files on the disk anywhere and everywhere :) AFC DaveS I don't see why you have to keep sysops happy, I guess. Smullen yeah, unfortunate.. AFC DaveS They're supposed to be grumpy :) AFL Marty Or UL some X-rated pics. DYA Jim lol AFC DaveS The grainer the better :) DYA Jim I don't do too much local communications anymore; the local BBS's suck for the Smullen Yeah, but I like to continue my leaching ways without ratios interfering :-) DYA Jim most part. :| IC Gerry LOL, Marty..:) AFC SteveB Marty :) AFL Marty (I'm vaguely familiar with local BBS's) DYA Jim I used to be.. when I first got my modem. DYA Jim brb AFC DaveS You know, you could probably create fake 256 grayscale pictures :) Smullen and convert them to GIF? how? AFL Scott Yeah.. add $11 to each color value! :) AFC DaveS I meant editing the GIF file headers to have a full 256 colormap. Not really AFC DaveS something that would be quick to do. AFC DaveS Might not notice if the scans were supposed to be high contrast. :) AFL Scott Another way.. convert it to raw and normalize it. :) AFC DaveS Getting a scanner to maintain favorable upload/download ratios is pretty AFC DaveS extreme...you must be quite the dedicated collector :) AFL Scott Oh... That's $11 to each color value except $0 and $F. :) AFL Scott No... except $0 only.... just make the F $FF :) AFC Ted Looks like we lost him AFC Ted Scott, I've heard you and Jonah use the word "quantizing". What does that mean AFC Ted In terms I can understand? AFL Scott It means in this particular context.. reducing a colormap to a specified AFL Scott number of colors. For example, from 256 colors to 16. :) AFC DaveS Ted: Take the continuous case of an arbitrary signal S, and apply an AFC DaveS equilateral subdivision over its domain of N parts... :) AFL Marty Yes. Dave is correct. AFL Marty Although it need not be continuous. It will also work in the discrete cases. AFC DaveS I was trying to be obtuse...naturally Marty understood :) AFL Scott You guys with your Math degrees make me ill! :) AFC Ted agreed, Scott :) AFL Marty It has to do with choosing the closest color from a specified set of colors AFL Marty Ted. AFC Ted OK, good enough AFL Marty The idea is very simple. The algorithm isn't. AFL Scott Actually... it more like Making that specified set of colors... AFL Scott Closest Match, distance wise fits in there, too.... BTW... :) AFC Tosh For me....All this means is: Keep the background simple, so the subject gets AFC Tosh the colors. :) AFL Scott If ya don't know the closest match of a target color with a specified color... AFL Scott you can't figure the index... :) AFL Marty So you're choosing the best 16 colors which most closely match... AFL Marty the colors in a particular 256 color picture. AFC Ted the mostest colors? AFL Marty (as an example) AFL Scott Yup! :) AFL Scott It's that word BEST that is the hard part! :) AFL Marty (talk about moving targets)