APPLE II GRAPHICS & SOUND FORUM CONFERENCE LOG August 13, 1993, 10:00 P.M. Topic: TurboRez GS Forum Leader: W. Scott Gentry (AFL Scott) Edited by: Ted O'Hara (AFC Ted) Copyright (c) 1993 America Online, Inc. and Excellent Software, Inc. All Rights Reserved Ed note: For best results, either use a text based word processor or text file viewer, or use a monospaced font like Monaco or Courier when viewing this log. ================================================================== 8/13/93 10:03:30 PM Opening "Chat Log 8/13/93" for recording. AFC DaveS : Has anyone dl'd system 6.01 yet? AFC Ted : Yup AFL Marty : Not I. AFC Ted : I did it this afternoon AFC DaveS : What's it like? NealS6 : Already have it AFC Ted : The biggest difference I've seen is that it says AFC DaveS : I hope those "You need at least 300K" messages go away. NealS6 : Hi Tosh Chaesseco : Not I, too long 6 disks=6 hours = $24 AFC Ted : "About this Apple IIgs" instead of "About the Finder" AFC Tosh : They fixed the conflict with Pointless and 6.0.1 didn't they? AFC Ted : There's a fix for it in Marty's library AFL Scott : Tonight, I'd like to depart a bit from the norm here and do what I did during the Gulf war. Most of you probably know that Delores Jordan's husband, James' body was identified today. James Jordan is the father of Michael Jordan. AFL Scott : Since my son was 8 months old, he's been addicted to basketball. The person responsible for that in a large part is Michael Jordan. Matthew, my son, loves to watch him play. I don't know what brought this to be, but Matthew had a native understanding ofthe game. Tonight, I'm not really know that he and his late father were more than father and son, they were friends. AFL Scott : I'd just like to say that my prayers are with the Jordan family. AFL Scott : I'm sorry, but I had to say that. AFL Scott : Tonight's topic is TurboRez GS. AFL Scott : I've recently received some updated information on TurboRez and it's looking pretty good. Hellian : Cool, I saw it at the Apple Expo in Boston AFL Scott : The big deal is the possibility of a mode where using a VGA monitor might be possible. AFL Scott : Many have been hoping for such an item for the longest time, and it looks like they'll have to wait a bit longer. I don't think we'll see it before Spring. That makes it about a year late over the first announced date. Chaesseco : TurboRez......What is it? What can it do for me? How much? How long? AFC Tosh : Thats the last time I saw it too, in Boston. AFC DaveS : That would be great! Chaesseco : And What does it do for the VOC? And will it fix the bugs in the VOC? FredW GS : What is it? = A higher res. GS video board. FredW GS : What will it do for you? = ? You must decide. AFL Scott : TurboRez GS is an add-on graphics board for the IIGS. In the projected configuration it will be able to display 256 colors simultaneously on your standard GS monitor in 320 mode and will display those same 256 colors in 640 mode. Chaesseco : I'll have grandchildren and be on my death bed by the time TurboRez and A3D [Animasia 3D-ed] come out. Chaesseco : And I'm only 17 FredW GS : In that case they probably won't do much for you. Chaesseco : I know. That's the problem Hellian : No way, Chaesseco... My friend tried a beta version.... Chaesseco : I would like to while I'm still young FredW GS : As I'm learning the HARD way, there's a big jump between beta hardware and production hardware...much larger in my estimation than in software. AFL Scott : In addition, it has a mode similar to 3200 color mode on the GS that allows a display of around 7000 colors simultaneously. Chaesseco : Hellian Was it cool? Chaesseco : Pity Chaesseco : Whooooooo! Chaesseco : The question is do we need that many colors? FredW GS : Actually we need more...and higher resolution, but this is a start. AFL Scott : In order to make updates really fast, the TurboRez will have a blitter that will work at 10mhz and be able to swiftly update graphics. Hellian : Chaesseco, Very... Amazing... I was waiting for VGA quality on the IIgs... Chaesseco : Actually I could use it but it problem is that when using DG it's hard to put the colors in the right pallette and so on Hellian : And the animation was very fast, Chaesseco AFC Ted : Neat, Scott :) AFL Scott : Also included will be display list processing... which means you can have objects move around the screen and have hardware take care of the most time consuming tasks. FredW GS : I don't understand Scott?? What does the blitter buy when the bus is still 1MHz...does it use display lists or something? ...oh :) Chaesseco : So it's good for A3D [Animasia 3D--Ed] AFL Scott : It will feature hardware based scrolling in both X and Y directions... this means you can scroll a "playfield" -- something very useful for arcade type games. FredW GS : So as long as you're not doing full motion video it buys you a lot. Chaesseco : Big Question: "Will it free up memory on my GS?" AFC DaveS : You can store graphic data in unused display RAM on the board, and move it around very fast, Fred. AFL Scott : Questions... Hellian : The only probles is... WE NEED SOFTWARE FOR IT.... and for the GS...ha ha ha he Hellian : what a joke AFC DaveS : And Bill mentioned that the data thruput was over 1MHz...he snoops the bus to read data in a special code sequence (ie: the frame buffer isn't memory mapped) AFC Tosh : Seems that would be a requirement...having memory onboard. Chaesseco : They said that about the VOC, and I still haven't seen any good production software for it. AFL Scott : Chas... no. In fact, it's going to use memory because there is a special toolset that TurboRez uses. AFC DaveS : Scott: what was the last projected price for TurboRez? FredW GS : How much memory is onboard the TurboRez?? AFL Scott : The last projected price was around $250-$300. Chaesseco : Not good, means I need to pack my IIgs with 8megs, to feel comfortable Hellian : Nobody has said anything.... NOBODY manufatures any software for the IIgs anymore.... It's a dead machine AFL Scott : Memory? I don't know. I would guess that there's enough for two pages of 640x480 graphics at 8 bits plus CLUT ram. Chaesseco : I know, thats another prob. I have C (Orca) and I'm willing to prgram the software the IIgs world needs, but I haven't found time learn how to program in C. AFC Tosh : Clut Ram? HAven't heard of that one before. Hellian : The board without software is nothing.... and the three or so programs that come with it just won't cut it. AFC DaveS : CLUT = color lookup table AFC Ted : Color Look Up Table AFC Tosh : :) Thanks Boys. AFL Scott : Hellian... Tell that to Roger Wagner, Byteworks, Apple (even), Me. Chaesseco : I know. Hellian AFL Scott : Tell it to everyone. Hellian : Apple doesn't even support the machine... and other comany's are pulling out... AFC DaveS : <- wags his tail AFL Scott : The board will also come with a paint program, a game, probably -- and a graphics conversion program. AFC Ted : <-handing Dave a biscuit :) FredW GS : So how is the VGA happening Scott?? Are they upping the scan rate? AFL Scott : Tell that to Seven Hills, Big Red, and other's Hellian. AFL Scott : What you're saying about Apple is true, but there are many software companies working on software for the IIGS. Hellian : Big Red is getting Down on money... and Will stop supporting if this keeps up.. Hellian : There is no profit in a machine that you can't even buy in computer stores any more. FredW GS : Unfortunately, IMHO, the IIgs has one fatal flaw that keeps it shackled... AFL Scott : Fred, I don't know the particulars of the design except to say it uses a standard VGA chip. FredW GS : BUS/CPU speed. Hellian : Most stores carry a tiny rack of old games... Pazzo30702 : There's profit in support. AFL Scott : Hellian, I beg to differ. AFL Scott : If you support those who support who, there will be profit. That means you have to buy what you use. Chaesseco : I wrote Kurta concering the graphic tablet I wanted. And they called me they were suprised how much support there was for the GS. Pazzo30702 : It's to what market you support. FredW GS : OK, it most probably ups the scan rate then. Hellian : I am disgusted if you are trying to call me a "pirate"... There is no way this machine can cut it anymore Hellian : It IS now obsolete AFL Scott : I'm not calling you a pirate. I'm telling you how it is. I'm a developer. AFL Scott : Hellian, everything is obsolete before it gets out the door. FredW GS : Obsolete for what Hellian? It does everything it did when I bought it just as well now as it did then. Chaesseco : I told them there is no support commercially but there is through shareware.. Hellian : I have been programming since I was 8... ok... I also know... look in ADV... NealS6 : Hellian if you can buy it it is obsolete! Hellian : in the game designers SIG... Bill Heineman Knows it.... AFL Scott : Usefullness is the important thing. My IIGS is still very useful. Hellian : Neal... Apple Will only Ship GS's if they Are special ordered... AFL Scott : Hellian, I don't need to look in ADV for justification for your views. I know the machine is obsolete. It's still useful, though. FredW GS : I agree, other computers do more powerful things, but my GS will do telecom, MIDI and TV calibrator. NO PC can do it better. NealS6 : No they don't even sell the GS anymore. But so what! Hellian : It's a slow Blob, And not everyone has the Dough to buy a Accelerator AFL Scott : What computer do you use Hellian? AFC DaveS : Obsolesence isn't so much the problem as the shrinking pie. I agree with Scott's point that if there are people using the machine and buying wha they use, there will be profit. Hellian : 386's 486's and A IIgs AFC Tosh : I split my work between 2 machines, but my GS handles all my Word Processing, Business and Tax work and lots of fun stuff. AFL Scott : What do you find more useful? AFC DaveS : The amount of profit a shrinking pool of users can support, though, erodes at our developer support. FredW GS : If I want to do DSP I go to a 486/66, if I want to modem why NOT use a GS? FredW GS : It can keep up with 9600 baud as well as a 486 can. Chaesseco : DSP? Hellian : Because... Most bbs's don't support IIgs software, Fred FredW GS : (number crunching) AFL Scott : Digital Signal Processor. AFL Scott : Hellian, which computer do you use the most? FredW GS : I don't NEED software to modem, I have it already. Hellian : I use my gs in the summer for programming, and the IBM clones in the school season for likewise AFL Scott : Which do you use most? AFC Ted : Which do you enjoy more? FredW GS : 1280x1024 doesn't make my Email look that much more interesting :) AFC Tosh : :) Hellian : I'd opt for a Mac II If I decided to side with Apple AFC Ted : You need more interesting mail, then, Fred. :) AFC Ted : That wasn't the question, Hellian. :) AFL Scott : You're not answering the question, Hellian... :) Hellian : And Don't think I'm not a Die-hard... I've u-loaded six programs for the IIgs in the past month. AFC Ted : The question is, does the IIGS do what you want? Chaesseco : TurboRez........How does it improve my VOC? AFC Ted : If no, then ditch it. AFC Ted : If yes, then enjoy it, and don't worry about it being out of fashion AFL Scott : Chas, the first question I need to ask you is this.. Hellian : It does what I want, But not fast enough.... AFL Scott : What's wrong with your VOC? AFC DaveS : Chaess: I'm not sure if it will work with it...the TurboRez generates its own video on top of the existing video...perhaps it can tap into the output of the VOC. AFL Scott : Dave ... it works with it... Trust me. :) AFC DaveS : Scott: OK FredW GS : I just got an HP735 99MHz workstation (it flys) but if a modem or a MIDI keyboard is at the other end of my program it twiddles its thumbs while doing my mundane tasks. Chaesseco : Nothing, except when viewing or creating 3200 color graphic(s) AFC DaveS : Scott: If you have a TurboRez, do you need a VOC if you want to do video overlay? Hellian : If Woz had put a decent double figure MHz in this crate... then I wouldn't complain AFL Scott : The first problem it will fix is this... you won't need to view things in 3200 color mode anymore. Chaesseco : VOC was designed in a time when 16 color palettes was the norm. I don't expect that the VOC will handle 256 well. Will TurboRez improve my VOC AFL Scott : Oh...and there's a simple fix that works in a a lot of cases for the 3200 color problem that happens with the VOC... Hellian : SCB's are a pain.... AFL Scott : You might want to try running a cable from the composite video out of the GS to the input of the VOC. AFL Scott : Chas, it will be able to key on 16 of the 256 colors. Chaesseco : Hey now thats pretty tricky I would of never have thought of that. AFC DaveS : So the bottom line on TurboRez is...? AFL Scott : The bottom line is this: TurboRez is still being worked on... it's way, way, late, but it's late for a reason -- parts. AFC Tosh : I would assume the longer we wait for the TurboRez, the more Plug n Play it will be... AFC Tosh : so can't be bad. AFL Scott : Tosh... I think that's a valid assumption. AFL Scott : So.... TurboRez is going to happen... when? I can't say. NealS6 : Scott, how does the TurboRez deal with older program. How does the screen look? AFL Scott : Oh... and the standard line for Allison 2.0's ship date is now... it'll be shipped when it's done. AFL Scott : It looks just like it looks now, Neal. No difference at all. AFL Scott : I don't know how it would look on a VGA monitor, though. AFC Tosh : Neal, the TR screen can be amazing.....Thousands of colors in a picture in a Finder Window. :) AFL Scott : Probably a bit smaller. AFL Scott : The reason there is no difference is in the way the graphics are done. TurboRez is always on, but its display is UNDER the IIGS's graphics. FredW GS : Maybe the screen will be 0.1 dB darker (the pass thru connector Scott :) AFC DaveS : So do you lose one IIGS color? AFL Scott : There is no passthru connector. All TRez's I've seen use the GS video port. AFL Scott : No, Dave. AFL Scott : If you have graphics in the TREZ memory the only thing you have to do is make sure the content region of a standard IIGS window is black. AFL Scott : You also have to provide coordinates to the software, but that's minor. Chaesseco : Would you suggested TR for production use? And does it have the power to be used that way FredW GS : Doesn't the TurboRez connect 'between' the GS video out and the monitor? AFC DaveS : So it's keyed to black? FredW GS : electrically? AFL Scott : All the information you need is in the GrafPort structure so it's simple to get. AFL Scott : Fred. No. AFL Scott : It connects Thru the GS video connector. FredW GS : Explain please Scott. AFL Scott : Yes, Dave... black is it... but if you don't have the graphics on, there's no problem. AFC DaveS : I'm confused too. AFC DaveS : passthru the GS video, or it's connected to the GS video connector? AFL Scott : The board itself is always on, but graphics mode isn't always on unless software tells it to display. AFL Scott : Video from Trez rides on and meshes with GS video. FredW GS : Yes but the video signal comes from where and goes to where? AFL Scott : The video signal connects to the video connector on the IIGS. FredW GS : OK, so you have GS video...where does that signal come from to go to the TR? AFC DaveS : So the video levels are actually mixed together, or are they multiplexed? AFL Scott : Mixed, Dave. AFC DaveS : So you can do transparency? AFC DaveS : That would be cool. AFL Scott : They coexist in real Time. FredW GS : Out of the video connector to the TR, Out of the TR to your monitor is that it? AFL Scott : Yes. In fact if the computer crashes during the time you're displaying TRez graphics, you can see IIGS graphics and Trez graphics mixed... Text mode, in other words, isn't keyed to anything... well isn't keyed as near as I can tell. AFL Scott : Yes, Fred. AFC DaveS : That's what he said before, I thought...is there more than one video connector on the GS? Chaesseco : So it would be easly to integrate two pictures and or graphics through a transition; a wipe, a blend, or fade. AFC DaveS : (other than NTSC out) FredW GS : So here's an interesting point... AFL Scott : No, Dave. There's only video connector (unless you have a VOC). FredW GS : In 320x200 mode you can get 256x16 colors per line, assuming TR has a 320x200 mode AFL Scott : There's only one video connector. AFL Scott : It could do that, Alan... I know it would be software controlled thing so I don't know how easy it would be. Chaesseco : Can you directly connect VOC and TR together. AFL Scott : Yes. In the same way you connect it to the GS. Chaesseco : I see your point Scott. FredW GS : By having 256 colors from the TR mix with 16 from GS video, you'll get 256x16 colors per line. AFL Scott : You could, I guess, Chas. Chaesseco : Scott, Do you connect card to card via AVEB, or IIgs AFL Scott : I don't have any programming information on it so I don't know the nuts for it, though. AFL Scott : The board plugs into any slot on the IIGS, Alan. FredW GS : Any word if they'll be including NTSC Scott? AFL Scott : They're looking at it, but nothing definite. It would be nice. Chaesseco : I understand that I meant via VOC to TR FredW GS : If not, I'll start taking orders now. AFC DaveS : Scott: When you mentioned that the TREZ might be able to be hooked up to a VGA monitor... Chaesseco : GenLock would win the production industry's vote. Just look at the Amigas, NewTek's vide toaster. AFC Tosh : I could see the GS with a VOC being incredibly useful for years with a tape recorder. AFC DaveS : but that doesn't neccessarily mean VGA resolutions (like 480 lines) does it? AFL Scott : It does, Dave. AFC DaveS : I saw a Video Toaster 4000 promo type. FredW GS : Do you agree Dave?? If the video is just being mixed you can get 256x16 colors FredW GS : in 320x200 mode?? Chaesseco : I know, I hope someday the IIgs will produce 24-bit/AutoDesk anims. AFC DaveS : Fred: I guess you're right, but the color placement limits would be nasty anyway... FredW GS : Hmm, you could use a B&W palette on the GS to get the luma info and leave the TR take care of hue and saturation. NealS6 : But Fred wouldn't that limit you to 320X200 or 640X200 AFC DaveS : Why bother? The TRez already has 18-bit color rez in its palettes. Chaesseco : Interesting point, Fred FredW GS : But only 256 colors at a time. AFC DaveS : You could do some interesting ghost effects I bet, though. FredW GS : Yes it would Neal. AFC DaveS : You would have to reserve some of your 256 colors to be "mix colors" with the GS, and then pick your 16 GS colors to interact with them....you couldn't place any color you wanted on any pixel on the line.... FredW GS : Agreed, there [would] be some trades, but you COULD take a much larger color depth image, and process it to strip out Intensity, Hue and Saturation... AFC DaveS : You already have a much larger color Depth with the TREZ. Why mix 4-bit components with the TRez 6-bit components? FredW GS : Leave the GS take care of Most of the intensity and let the TR do the fine tuning and add the H, S info. Chaesseco : As long as I can get true 24-bit graphic processing/display I'll be happy, because I need broadcast quality displays. FredW GS : You won't from the TR. AFC DaveS : Let me think about this... AFC DaveS : If you let the GS handle the intensity information (like 16 grays), and used the TRez to do tints... NealS6 : Not until you get a 32 bit GS Chaesseco AFC DaveS : Is that what you mean, Fred? FredW GS : The TR wont give you 24 bit display Chaesseco. FredW GS : Yeah, that's it Dave. FredW GS : Now instaed of making some palette hurting colors on the edge of color-space you can let the GS handle the Intensity and save your palette for more tightly spaced color info. Chaesseco : True, but did you know your GS is a 24-bit machine. 16-bit + 8-bits with a data bus. AFC DaveS : So you could then specify additional information on the TRez side, using more low-intensity grays to fit in the gaps of the IIGS's 4-bit graylevel display. NealS6 : No it is 16 bit with a 8 bit data bus. Chaesseco : I believe it is possible.......Oh my god I am talking like Data!!!!!!!!! Chaesseco : Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggggggggggh! AFC DaveS : I don't think it would very useful.... FredW GS : That's it Dave...plus the TurboRez can do the coloring. AFC Ted : I do not understand why that should trouble you, Mr. Chaess. :) Chaesseco : That not whats it says in my IIgs spec sheet from Apple........ AFC DaveS : I could kind of see it working if you used your TRez do all the colors, and have kind of a limited tonal range (ie: the intensities). Chaesseco : Lol, ted AFC DaveS : Then you could mix in intensity information from the GS video to deepen shadows and lighten highlights. FredW GS : That's the idea Dave. AFC DaveS : Except your highlights and shadows would have the fidelity of a 16-level grayscale display, AFC DaveS : so you might get banding. Chaesseco : Lol Lol Lol Lol Lol Lol Lol Lol Lol Lol,Ted NealS6 : 16 bit with 8 bit data bus is what Western Digital says, Chaesseco. AFC DaveS : You could compensate by using more shades of colors. AFC DaveS : It makes more sense to me if you draw your 256 color picture, and then use the 16-levels of GS gray to add higlights and stuff...but if it mixes the signals on a screen-wide basis, you'll end up destroying the tonal balance of your image (I think). FredW GS : Think of it this way Dave...suppose you had the ability to mix to GS's signals together. Now instead of having 16 colors per line I can get 256 discrete colors. AFC DaveS : And? FredW GS : So here I have the ability to have 256x16 discrete colors that's what, 4096 colors?? FredW GS : That's a significant jump. AFC DaveS : It has possibilities, Fred. AFC DaveS : You could do something similar to black undercolor removal, except maybe extend it to grays? FredW GS : If I had 3 GS's I could mix together, could display the entire 4096 palette at once. Any color, anywhere I wanted it. AFC DaveS : But Fred, the TRez already has 64 times the number of colors the GS can display. FredW GS : I agree it'd take some thought. FredW GS : But only 256 at once without limitations. AFC DaveS : If you don't include the pseudo multiple palette mode. FredW GS : Yeah. James S WI : Fred, what kind of hardware are you talking about using? AFC DaveS : Last I remember, you could change abour 40 colors per line during hblank. FredW GS : This COULD increase that to 4096 without limitations. FredW GS : The TurboRez board James. AFC DaveS : I think you could do it, Fred. AFC DaveS : Here's a possible algorithm: James S WI : Doesn't the TR use more than 4096 colors? I know you only get 256 at a time plus hblank tricks but they are from a possible set of more than 4096. AFC DaveS : Well, at least a possible equation. AFC DaveS : Well, maybe not even that. FredW GS : :) FredW GS : It's the 256 at a time we're trying to get around James. AFC DaveS : But you take the 18-bit color from the TREZ, subtract the largest 6-bit grayscale component AFC DaveS : you can take out that is a multiple of 4. AFC DaveS : Those numbers you save for your GS video intensity mask thing. FredW GS : Sounds like a winner already Dave. AFC DaveS : Then you take the remainders, and feed that into your 256-color quantizing algorithm. FredW GS : Then add in the difference to get the correct color vector. FredW GS : Yep! That's what I was thinking of Dave. AFC DaveS : Then why didn't you say so? :) James S WI : What effect are you talking about getting? FredW GS : These color vectors SHOULD be much more tightly packed in color space and you SHOULD be able to quantize them much more effectively. AFC DaveS : About boosting the TRez's nominal 256 color per line limitation by using transparency overlay effects of the GS video. FredW GS : Because you like it so much more when you get it yourself Dave :) AFC DaveS : Fred: That's a good point...they'd all be, uh, 2 bit values? AFC DaveS : Each component, that is... AFC DaveS : Wait a moment... AFC DaveS : Something is wrong here... FredW GS : Not necessarily. Suppose you had (0,16,16) FredW GS : Closest B&W vector to that is 16,16,16... I think. AFC DaveS : Wouldn't it be 0, 16, 16? AFC DaveS : We haven't factored in the averaging step.... FredW GS : 0,16,16 isn't gray. FredW GS : It's bright Cyan. AFC DaveS : Oh, right...I was thinking of something else... FredW GS : You want (0,16,16), From the GS you get 16,16,16, from the TR you get 0,16,16 say...overall you get 8,16,16. FredW GS : This is the worst case I can come up with. AFC DaveS : You have to translate the B&W vector into 6-bit space, don't you? FredW GS : Yeah, same type results in 6 bit. AFC DaveS : Ok...let's say we get 0,16,16 from TRez. The closest the GS could muster (normalized to 6-bits) would be, 8,8,8? AFC DaveS : Gah...where's my calculator and paper pad? AFC DaveS : I've been doing art school stuff, and can't count in bits anymore! :o AFC Ted : :) FredW GS : Suppose the color we wanted to make was 0,16,16...The algorithm says... AFC DaveS : Hey...the right side of my brain is swelling up! Ow ow! AFA Andy : Dave :) FredW GS : the nearest B&W to this is 16,16,16...so it picks that for the GS... FredW GS : TR says...I now need what when averaged with 16,16,16 will give me 0,16,16...and gets -16, 16,16...best it can do is 0,16,16...hmmm...this didn't work so well... AFA Andy : I sure wish I knew what you guys were talking about :) FredW GS : So do I Andy :) AFC DaveS : Well, here's a possible equation... AFA Andy : LOL AFC Tosh : :) AFC DaveS : GSBW=2*COL-TREZ. AFC DaveS : Whoops...two unknowns. AFC DaveS : Andy: I wish we knew what we were talking about too...then we'd know how we wanted to do this. FredW GS : Ahh, I see the problem Dave... AFC DaveS : :) FredW GS : We need our 16 GS colors EVENLY distributed in color space... B/W doesn't do that... AFC DaveS : Are you sure? FredW GS : Think of color as a vector RGB (defining a cube) we want our colors at the corners of the cube and at the corners of a somewhat smaller cube inside the big cube...picture it Dave? AFC DaveS : What's this about the smaller cube? AFC DaveS : I'm trying to work from desired color to split color space... FredW GS : Make the GS colors (0,0,0), (0,0,16), (0,16,0), (16,0,0), (0,16,16), (16,0,16) FredW GS : (16,16,0), (16,16,16). FredW GS : That's 8 colors...forming the outer cube. AFC DaveS : Are those 4-bits or 6-bit normalized? AFC DaveS : If it's 4-bit, shouldn't it be 15? FredW GS : The inner cube is the same replacing 0's with 4's and 16's with 12's. FredW GS : Yeah they should be 15's :) FredW GS : Now give me a color (4 bit) any color. AFC DaveS : 1 FredW GS : 1? FredW GS : I need an RGB value. James S WI : 4,2,0 AFC DaveS : I'm trying to work this out...play with James :) AFA Andy : :) FredW GS : OK, that would be closest to GS color 5,0,0. FredW GS : The color I want to add to that from the TR would be hmmm.... FredW GS : OK, It's too late, and I don't know where I'm going anymore... AFA Andy : Fred, is your brain fried? :) James S WI : Isn't 256 colors enough? AFC DaveS : We'll pick this up next week. :) AFC DaveS : Fred here wants to extend it for a way kewl hack, I guess :) AFC Ted : I wonder if you guys shouldn't get RezTek in on this discussion. :) FredW GS : Fried city Andy....been playing UNIX jockey all week. AFA Andy : Sounds like a good idea, Ted ;) AFC DaveS : When we figure out an algorithm then we might have something to talk about. FredW GS : I'll try to work on it. AFC DaveS : Otherwise we'll just look even stupider :) FredW GS : Is that possible??? :) AFC Ted : Than what? Me? :) AFC Ted : Don't worry about it. :) AFA Andy : It looked liked you guys knew what you were talking about to me. AFC DaveS : Even stupider than we look now to you guys :) AFC DaveS : So Fred: The way I was trying to approach it was: AFC DaveS : Given a color, how to best choose (Rg+Rt)/2, (Gg+Gt)/2m (Bg+Bt)/2 to get a close display. FredW GS : That's the idea I think Dave. AFC DaveS : I guess I should normalize everything to floating point, not neccessarily assuming an 18-bit color space. AppleByter : Did I read correctly that Anamasia 3D is shipping? AFC DaveS : I think Mike said that he's "closer to shipping" AFC Ted : No, AppleByter. It's not, but it is still being worked on. AppleByter : OIC. Can't wait :) AFC DaveS : I think I have something...but I'll wait. FredW GS : Hi Dave...This is easy!!! FredW GS : OK Dave listen to this... FredW GS : Constrain your GS colors to just RED 1,0,0 2,0,0 etc... AFC DaveS : Ok. FredW GS : Now let your TR colors be just Green and Blue (4 bit) FredW GS : 16x16=256 colors for the TR... FredW GS : Now by adding these you can display 4096 discrete colors. AFC DaveS : So you've just killed your red range...it can only go 50% max. FredW GS : All 4096 colors. FredW GS : Same with B and G FredW GS : Turn up the brightness on your monitor or stick in a 2x amp on the RGB's!! AFC DaveS : Still it would be cool to see... FredW GS : GS = monitor ^^