APPLE II ART & GRAPHICS FORUM CONFERENCE LOG February 7, 1992 10:00 P.M. Topic: Conversions Forum Leader: W. Scott Gentry (AFL Scott) Edited by: Ted O'Hara (AFC Ted) Copyright (c) 1992 America Online, Inc. and Excellent Software, Inc. All Rights Reserved ================================================================== AFL Scott Graphics! Conversions and more! Tonight in AGR... AFL Scott On internet, there is an ongoing discussion about the virtues/pains involved with doing JPEG compression decompression / display on the GS. How many of you are familiar with JPEG compression and the files usually compressed with that method? AFC JohnC JPEG? AFC DaveS I'm somewhat familiar with it, but not way deep technically. AFA Andy Not at all Scott, but please feel free to enlighten me :) IIGS MATT hi all. I download Dream Voir yesterday and have been having problems playing the songs. Do you all know anything about that? AFL Marty Not I. AFL Scott JPEG stands for Joint Photography Experts Group. AFC Ted How so, Matt? AFC DaveS Matt: Are you using those SoundSmith songs packed in Wavebank format? IIGS MATT Well, I went into soundsmith (which I rarely use) and clicked on save inst. after loading the song. I typed in the name of the song + .d and dvoir says their are no music files?? I noticed that if I tell it to save the wave file "Kitzel.f.d", it saves "Kitzel.f.d.wbnk" and "Kitzel.f.d.snd" Why doesn't dvoir work with the songs? AFL Scott They came up with a method to turn large, bitmapped graphic images into small, compressed files that save space on disk. The compression method used is similar (in result only) to what GS users know as ACE. AFL Scott ACE, as you may or may not know compresses sound files into something smaller at a cost... AFC Tosh How quickly can they be unpacked Scott.......like could they be unpacked within an application? AFL Scott That cost is accuracy -- once expanded, the file is not a bit for bit representation of the original. In otherwords, it's a "lossy" compression format because some of the original is lost in the process. AFC DaveS Matt: I've never tried to get it work either, Matt. AFC Ted How inaccurate is it? AFC DaveS Matt: Lemme see if its mentioned in the DG manual. AFC Tosh That means that it would be useless for animation. AFL Scott Generally, the amount of loss is not really controlable because it's highly dependant on the original. That said, you can specify the amount of compression used, but at your own risk -- the more you compress, the more you will lose with a caveat: Some pictures can be compressed into insanely small files with virtually no visible loss of clarity. The price [of] such compression is speed. The more compressed of a file, the longer it will take to expand. AFA Andy If it's a bad technique, why mess with it, Scott? IIGS MATT is there another slide show that can play Soundsmith (and maybe SL) songs? IIGS MATT Thanks Dave. AFC DaveS Ted: It depends on the image and the "Quality" factor you choose. AFC DaveS Matt: You could try using Parik's BGSound DA, then launching SHR.View. BGSound 2.0, I believe, supports most SS effects AND plays SL. IIGS MATT true. BGSound doesn't play SL either though does it? AFA Andy I use bgsound and ShowPic all the time. IIGS MATT is BG Sound 2.0 out? AFC DaveS Matt: Maybe it's 1.1... anyway, the latest one should still be in AMS...it's AFC DaveS Matt: been there for a while. IIGS MATT yeah, I have that one and I don't think it worked w/ SL. Was anything in the manual about Dvoir? AFC DaveS Matt: Haven't checked yet...been typing :) hold on... IIGS MATT (is System 6 out yet)? OK Dave AFC Ted Matt, I don't think so. It's in a separate text file AFL Scott Well, on internet, they've been toying with the idea of porting a program called jpeg2gif. That program will take an existing jpeg file, expand it, then save it as a GIF. That's great. The problem in the case of the GS isn't so much speed here... it would take a while, but an overriding concern is memory. Why? Most files compressed with JPEG compression are usually 32-bit graphics. AFC Ted System 6 is not out yet AFC Tosh What machine is it being developed on Scott....cmputer independent? AFC DaveS Matt: I'm gonna attempt to use FileTools to read online docs...hold on... IIGS MATT is there a picture that actually has 3,200 colors in [it]? AFA Andy Not to my knowledge Matt. AFL Scott Now, that's not bad... The bad thing is that 32 bit graphics are usually quite huge -- a lot are easily huge enough to fill IIGS MATT Then why do they say they are 3200 color pics? very confusing AFL Marty How much memory are you talking about? AFA Andy Matt, it's because they are in 3200 format. AFC Ted They have the capability of diplaying UP TO 3200 colors AFL Scott up 4-5 mb of memory once expanded. AFL Marty oof IIGS MATT thanks. AFL Scott That said, there would be more than simple porting involved in a project of that sort. Sorta like having to redesign the program from scratch. AFA Andy That is a lot memory. AFC Ted Matt: Each of the 200 scan lines can display up to 16 colors. Omnitreant Matt: It sez that the music file should be $D5, and the music bank should be a BIN file...SONG and SONG.D should be the respective names. IIGS MATT but, I thought there are only 16 pallettes? so how do you get 3,200 colors??? AFL Marty Would picture size also be a problem? AFL Scott That's the case in a nutshell... I hope you all could understand what I said. :) AFL Scott Yes Marty. It probably would. AFC Ted Matt, a 3200 color progrma switches palettes "on the fly" so each line has a different palette. 200 x 16 colors =3200 colors IIGS MATT When SS saves the file it saves a wave file and a SND file. both are bin. Omnitreant I missed part of Scott's discussion...can you give me the nutshell summary in a sentence? AFL Scott The word... Memory. Memory is the problem. Most jpeg pictures are easily large enough to fill up all available memory once expanded. AFC Tosh Scott it would be nice if it was "tamed" enough to help with large animation files. JP1 "omnis Gallia in tres partes divisa est."...as closely as I could follow. #;^) AFL Marty "dividem" AFL Scott I could see a use for it but then there already are two competing technologies in that arena... AFC JohnC Why do they unpack to such a large file Scott? JP1 [Welll......] AFL Marty :) Omnitreant 24-bit, arbitrarily-sized images, John. AFL Scott Quicktime from Apple, and MPEG compression from the Motion Picture Experts Group. Fun stuff. AFC JohnC ok AFL Marty Scott, seems to me we would first need a de-GIFfer that was capable of displaying GIFs of arbitrarily large size. AFC Tosh How about BurgerBills tease about QuicktimeGS. ;) AFL Scott That was sweet, Don! :) AFL Marty I don't think one exists, does it? AFL Scott You're right, Marty... the only ones I know of are SHRView and the as yet unreleased "Lord High Giffer" (which I have). Omnitreant Marty: At risk of sounding silly, Prism will do it. AFC Tosh Would be fun.....Perhaps he's using Allison. AFL Marty You're right. AFL Marty It sounds silly. :D DangardAce TWGS/Zipped GS would be just as powerful as an LC as far as that film stuff AFA Andy {S Vapourware} DangardAce goes. Unless it had the 32,000 color upgrade. AFL Marty (Unless someone's willing to EMail me unreleased software :) AFL Scott You've been hangin' around Marty too long, Andy! :) AFL Scott Vapourware! :) Omnitreant :) AFA Andy :) AFL Marty :) DangardAce Prismware. :) JP1 [NC-Ware?] DangardAce NC-ware.. as in No way Charlie? :) AFL Scott Any how... I told Todd I wouldn't propogate his file. :(I AFL Marty Besides, Prism is below EV on the priority list. Omnitreant Marty: Last I heard, Prism was being considered for release before EV, since "it's almost done". JP1 See? There _will_ be new GS/OS software in the mid-90s. DangardAce 3200 is a pretty funky format to begin with. AFL Scott Antsy-ware, John? JP1 De quoi? Omnitreant I sent away for LHG via email to Whitesel, after he posted that "Author's Response" on comp.sys.apple2 DangardAce Well into the 90's. AFL Marty I stand corrected, I guess. AFC JohnC I like that John...plenty of lead time...mid 90's AFC Tosh Willtherebeanybodyleftwhenitcomesoutware. Omnitreant Well, don't take Omnitreant's word on it...Omni isn't an AFC :) DangardAce His word means diddly? :) AFC JohnC LOL Tosh! Omnitreant Yep, you silly fruitcake :) AFC Ted Don't go infringing on Marty's trademarks :) AFL Marty Well, the AFC's word is in even greater doubt. :D Omnitreant Like anyone ever listened to the AFCs in the first place :) DangardAce Any word on the DSP or VGA cards? DangardAce :: chuckling :: AFL Scott Pete... No... I haven't heard about those boards. :) AFL Marty Sometimes nobody knows the real products are available. AFC Ted I wonder what kind of snags system 6 ran into...whether it was one big thing or a bunch of small problems Nuzz They sure seem to know about the vapor ones though, Marty AFL Marty I know... I'm still pissed about Apple hiding the superdrive card. AFL Scott I'm pissed, about that, too, Marty. And Mike is right... it seems everyone wants something that they can't get. Reality is a dream filled with wishes of vapor. AFL Marty I agree Mike's right. Most folks haven't tapped even 10% of the capability of the software they already have. AFL Scott Secretly, I think the majority of the people really believe what they read about the Apple II. I think that pressures them into not using what they have. I also think anyone with half a brain would stay the hell away from Macintosh's. I mean, they AFL Marty Not to mention the ones that want Aldus PageMaker GS at WriteAway prices. Nuzz There's a post in ADV from someone that in the same message bashes Apple for not doing anything for the II and then he says he hasn't bought anything in over a year AFL Scott Apple is already getting ready to discontinue the Classic, LC, and IIsi. AFL Marty There you go Scott. They haven't half a brain. Nuzz You figure it AFL Scott Buy a Mac... get instant gratification, then wake up to the reality that what you bought has been discontinued in favor of the next insanely great 68k box from Apple. Bad. Bad. Bad. 2 weeks after I bought my IIcx, Apple released the IIci. DangardAce I thought they were doing it in lieu of a 030 LC, Classic, iisi..