APPLE II ART & GRAPHICS FORUM CONFERENCE LOG January 24, 1992 10:00 P.M. Topic: Scanners/Digitizers Forum Leader: W. Scott Gentry (AFL Scott) Edited by: Ted O'Hara (AFC Ted) Copyright (c) 1992 America Online, Inc. and Excellent Software, Inc. All Rights Reserved ================================================================== AFL Scott Tonight's conference is on Scanners and digitizers... If you've got one and have questions, this is the place to come for answers! AFC DaveS Speaking of Scans, Ted...you scan that picture of me yet? AFL Scott On a like-note... I was reading comp.sys.apple2 today... seems as if some people are in the mood for a JPEG file decoder/displayer... I sure hope they've got enough memory for the pictures. Some of them are _absolutely huge_ (AH... it's a term I invented for files that fill up memory and all swap space). So... When you want to tell someone how big Simply say "AH"... That means it's too big to be of use. AFC Ted I've tried, Dave, but I haven't been satisfied with it yet. I've been busy though, so I 've just had a few minutes before 6:00 rolls around to work on it AFC DaveS Understandable, Ted. I'm not very photogenic :) McKinsey I'm very animagenic. AFC Ted Dave, the photograph itself isn't bad. Mike4579 Has any one seen an item called "Scan: Align"? AFC DaveS Scott, would JPEG work well on GS Super Hires images? I mean 320x200, 16 color AFC DaveS out o' 4096 and all...or would it be a huge waste of time? AFC DaveS It would be cool is we could compress APFs to 4K or less. AFL Scott Probably would, but it depends on the pictures, Dave... Remember, JPEG is a lossy compression method and having only 64000 pixels to lose might prove too lossy for the picture. JP1 I've seen one, Mike. It "does the job"...though a little pricey, IMO. McKinsey Scott, tell me about 256->16 color conversion algorithms. AFC DaveS That's what I was pondering...at GS resolutions, the lossy compression might just nuke what ever we did. Mike4579 I found the "Scan : Align" to be indispensible. AFL Scott What do you want to know, Chris? McKinsey :-) AFC DaveS Scan Align! Where did you find that? McKinsey Everything. :-) JP1 Mike, if it does what you want, then it's a good piece of gear. AFL Scott Ok... Which algorithm? Mike4579 Egghead Software. McKinsey Um... your choice. Whatever your favorite is. :) Mike4579 $35.00 and a great little scanning tool. AFL Scott Ok... Let's do brute force averaging... AFL Scott Do you have access to a Unix based workstation that McKinsey Ok. AFL Scott runs XWindows, Chris? McKinsey Yes. A Sun SPARC station. AFL Scott Ever heard of a program called xloadimage? McKinsey Yes, I use it often. Mike4579 Anybody here try to do color separations with their scanner yet? AFC DaveS There's a nice new program called XV for X that is way better than xloadimage. AFC DaveS It also loads JPEG directly. AFL Scott Well, in that program, you have an option to remove AFL Scott colors from the picture... you can specify any number of colors from 2 to 256. Here's how it works... it simply does a recursion on a histogram make that recursive average on a histogram... Say the histogram has 256 colors and you want to reduce the color count to 16... well, first you divide the histogram up into 128 parts, then you average the.... AFC DaveS Mike: Any luck? Mike4579 Well, not so great with colored masks on the scanner.....too dark. AFL Scott pairs of colors that are closest to each other (in RGB space). You save the result (you now have 128 colors). Next, you break the 128 color histogram into two 64 color lists. You find the nearest pairs... that will give you 32 colors... get the idea, Chris? AFC Ted What kind of filters are you using (curious, I've never done it) Mike4579 There's a $135.00 gizmo for the PC's and Mac's that uses colored acetate and high intensity light to seperate the colors and rebuild them in the paint programs. AFC DaveS Mike: That yellow-green light on the Quickie might affect the filters you choose. AFL Scott BTW, I use xv at work. It is good. AFC DaveS 135 bucks? McKinsey Can you define a histogram? Mike4579 Yeah, and that doesn't include your scanner! AFL Scott In this context, a histogram is a list of colors an image contains. In _most_ graphics applications, a histogram is the _count_ of colors in a given image. In the method of reduction I mentioned above, the histogram is simply a list where the count isnt' used. AFC DaveS I'm gonna have to get this Scan Align thing. What does it look like, Mike? AFL Scott If you have xloadimage, you also have the source code, I'll be willing to bet. AFL Scott Chris, did that help? AFC DaveS On a non-related note: How much faster is a Zip 7/8K than a 9/32K? Mike4579 The Scan: Align is this neat little frame and board with a grid, vellum, and templates for various scanners. It holds your scanner ABSOLUTELY true while scanning. AFL Scott It's slower, Dave. AFC Tosh You mean slower dave? :) AFC DaveS Yeah, that's what I mean :) McKinsey Yes, it did. McKinsey I'm wondering though, how do you compare for the "closest" color? You can't simply just take the "difference" of the two, can you? HarryI Scott. . . Did you already cover any new changes with Allison or [the] Visionary board? AFC Tosh Quite a bit Dave.....I noticed the difference going from 8/16 to 9/64. AFL Scott Harry, I haven't here, yet... want me to? AFC DaveS Is it more worthwhile to get bigger cache or faster processor? AFC DYAJim How much of a difference was there Tosh? AFC DaveS I'd think the cache would be it. AFC DYAJim I'm considering that move in the upcoming year. DWS Steve for closest color, the distance formula seems to work fine... HarryI I'd be very interested. I am thinking of getting another board. AFL Scott There are lots of ways to do that, Chris... The way it's done in Allison is by converting the RGB triplet into NTSC colors then running the triplet through a sort of "least squares" algorithm... There are simpler ways, but this is the most accurate. Mike4579 Shoot, Larry has had my Visionary card since October! Of course he's got a few irons in the fire! AFC DaveS Tosh: How much faster was it? Was the difference measurable in seconds? AFL Scott I'm most interested in hearing about complaints from New Concepts. In fact, if you've sent a board to Larry to be upgraded and haven't received it simply email me the serial number of your board and I can tell if you I've calibrated it. If I've calibrated it and it passed, there is no excuse for you not receiving the board. AFC Tosh I'm sure yes Dave but I never checked them that way..... The 64 cache I think makes sure you don't see any screen redraws....I like that part of it. Mike4579 You got to remember, he's still in high school! AFC DYAJim cool AFC DaveS Tosh: I think I'll get the 64K cache, then :) AFC DaveS Tosh, Steve: Does it help with the SBC mode in DreamGrafix? AFC Ted SBC doesn't seem that slow to me Mike4579 All I got left is the reciept from the original purchase, and the certified reciept from the post office. AFC Tosh I'm sure it does.....Slow But Cool doesn't seem that slow. ;) DWS Steve A Zip or TWGS improves SBC mode tremendously! It makes DG look like it was written in C... not! AFC DaveS Coolness! You know, Tosh, after using your machine, I thought my GS was broken :) AFL Scott I have to call Larry again Monday (if I'm not in the hospital). If you email me your full name and address, I'll find out why you haven't received your board. DWS Steve The cache helps... I have a 7 mhz 32k cache, and it's pretty quick... although I know that a 9 mhz 32k cache zip is faster.... AFC DYAJim What does SBC stand for? AFC Ted Slow But Cool AFC DaveS Slow But Cool :) AFC DYAJim oh Mike4579 ALLRIGHT!!!!! and may be a better (legible) manual? AFC Tosh Dave....It just seemed broken cuz you were using DPII again. ;) AFC DYAJim I don't know if I'll be able to live without my zip if I send it off to get upgraded AFC DaveS :P Tosh AFC Tosh :) DWS Steve :) AFC Ted I'll tell you, I was impressed watching Dave draw... especially considering he was unfamiliar with the program AFC DaveS I like the gradient features of Platinum Paint. AFC DaveS I didn't like the drawing tools that much, though. To be truthful, I had never used them before. AFC DaveS I guess Ted is easily impressed :) DWS Steve Yeah, gradients are something we need... does anyone have an algorithm? AFC DaveS I hope DG can do HSV. AFC Ted I dunno, Dave :) AFC DaveS Speaking of HSV, Tosh, Ted showed me how to get it in PP. AFC Tosh Dave....PP does all the brush type tricks that you showed me with DPII....I just had to find them. HarryI What is HSV? AFA Andy Hey DWS Steve, how about multipalettes in 640? ;) AFC DaveS The thing is, Tosh, that DP has them all up front. AFC Ted Hue Saturation Value AFC DaveS Hue-Saturation-Value. HarryI Thanks AFC DaveS My fave color selection method. McKinsey I think it would be too limiting, Andy. AFC Ted I don't think so, Chris AFC DaveS It WOULD be cool to see a gradient sunset on the Finder Desktop, though :) McKinsey Well, I do. DWS Steve Sorry, there isn't any support for color other than RGB, or for multiple palette 640 mode... although, I stress that they can all be done through external commands.. :) We were thinking about some other externals... :) But you could mix 640 and 320 modes easily... and it would be a nice feature to see in DreamGrafix... that way you could have nice text and graphics.. AFL Scott Harry, You wanted to know about Allison.. right? AFC Tosh Wouldn't it be the same as 320? Still APF. AFC Ted Right, Tosh HarryI Yes, Scott. . . AFL Scott Well, to tell you the truth.... the biggest improvement I've got right now is support for 16 palette pictures. They look pretty good, too. The version I'll be sending out to testers in a little while is going to have my GIF conversion stuff in it ,too. McKinsey No, because 640 mode maps 640 palettes to specific PIXEL locations. AFC Ted You mean the minipalettes? AFC DaveS HSV! HSV! HSV! :) AFC DYAJim How would you handle menus in mixed mode Steve? AFC Ted Steve, the guided tour for the IIGS does that....it's a neat trick... would be good for HS AFC DYAJim Switch all the SCBs to 320 when a menu is pulled down? DWS Steve Scott, you have a GIF converter? Do you want to make it into an external? HarryI Sounds Great. . . Thanks for the info. If it isn't too touchy... How's Emerald 3200 paint coming along? DWS Steve No... DreamGrafix starts Quick Draw II in 320 mode, and it stays in 320 mode... The whole time... the menus look fine, even when the SCB's are set to 640... We pull a trick to make the fonts print in 640 mode, although we are in 320 just by changing the info in some of the ports to make QD think it is in 640 AFL Scott Got me, Harry... I don't know anything about Emerald Visions. :( AFC DaveS From what I can tell, Harry, EV is maybe 70% done. AFC Ted maybe AFC Ted maybe less DWS Steve 70% Are they shooting for an April release date? SteveB And increasing 1 percent each year, it seems. AFC Ted I got a whiff of that, but they haven't said so AFC DaveS I dunno, Steve. I don't think there actually is a release date set. AFC DYAJim that's a cool trick Steve! I should buy DG soon :) AFC Ted Yes, you should:) DangardAce I'd buy DG if you'd send me one. :) AFC Tosh You should Jim. :) AFL GaryJ :) DWS Steve Thanks...I hope everybody buys DG soon! :) JP1 <-- already did!! AFC Tosh Walk over and buy it Pete. ;) DWS Steve Pete, I'll send you one... just need some info... AFA Andy <-- already has it and loving it :) AFC Tosh Take the R train up Broadway..... DangardAce The R train makes a mean right into Queens after 59th st.. AFC Tosh err...ahhhh :) DangardAce More like the 1,2,3 twain. ) DWS Steve and get on the 1/9 to 116th St... and go hang out with Steve... :) AFC Ted Scott, do you think you'll be coming to the Boston show? DangardAce I'll be in Bahhhhston, if I have to quit my job to do it. :) AFC DaveS I'm planning to go to the Boston Show...it'll be cool. AFC DaveS When we do the Boston Gig, we'll play with DP2 all day long and then you'll see some speed :) AFC Tosh Dave and I were working out an Easy chrome reflection method too. Could make a good Art guild tute. AFC Ted Good AFC DYAJim Anyone know what SC stands for, as in CDSC and HDSC? AFC Ted SCSI? AFC DaveS It was mostly Tosh's idea. He synthesized it from my EZ font coloring. AFL Scott SCSI. DangardAce Scsi Controlled DangardAce ? AFC Ted I got it right! AFC DYAJim ahh.. scsi controlled.. AFC DYAJim or maybe just scsi :) AFL Scott If it means SCSI Controlled, how do they define a serial device? AFC DaveS Is there an Apple II artwork CD? AFL Scott <--Devils advocate. AFL Scott I dunno, Dave.... probably... A2 Central will probably download every file in their library and put it out as a CD at one point or another. It's not a bad idea, if you ask me. Heck, AOL should do that. AFC DaveS I remember Marty or someone saying that it cost only a couple hundred bucks to master a CD. AFC Ted I wounder how long it would take to pull everything off the Stratus DangardAce AOL loves the Apple II. :) AFC DaveS Then some lucky person would get to organize it! :) AFC Ted Loves it to death AFC Tosh :) JP1 If AO releases a CD, will they search for a 'format' that's not compatible w/ the GS? :P AFL Scott Probably too long... but then it would have to be done in Vye Enna! AFC DYAJim Regarding CDs --- AFC DYAJim Apple says that it is reasonable to distribute your data on CDs DangardAce :: waiting for the Lordz of Kwantom to respond :: AFC DYAJim when: AFL Scott 1. They don't pay for it. AFL Marty Apple also says "we will continue to sell..." ad nauseum. AFC DaveS 1) You want to sell lots of Apple CD-ROM drives AFL Scott 2. They say it's cool. DangardAce I guess that's why we're getting an HFS FST.. AFC DYAJim (looking :) AFL Scott 3. They have a T-Shirt out. AFL Scott 4. They have seeded everyone except those that really need the thing. DangardAce So we have to keep running to converters whenever we want CD stuff. AFL Marty 5. Pigs fly. AFC DYAJim here we go: AFC DYAJim "If you need 100 or more copies of 20 megabytes or more of information, AFC DYAJim it makes sense to distribute your data on CD-ROM discs. AFC DYAJim Contact a CD-ROM disc manufacturer .. .. ..." AFL Marty ::looking in yellow pages:: DangardAce Yah, sure, theres one on every street corner.. AFL GaryJ I examined a 747 today. I'm convinced that pigs can fly. AFL Scott :) AFC DaveS Does a CD-ROM volume appear as a zillion partitions on the desktop? AFC DYAJim Actually, it is quite competitive (manufacturing) DangardAce "Can I press a few thousand CD's for ya mister, huh" AFC DYAJim Yeah Dave :) AFA Andy Marty, putting all the fonts on CD might take more than one! AFC DYAJim Well, if it's HFS it's only one, but if it's got ProDOS partitions, it's many AFC Ted Dave, it uses a non-ProDOS FST AFL Scott One, slow partition, Jim. :) AFL Marty I dunno... how many meg can a CD hold? AFC DYAJim Yeah, I hate the speed! AFC DYAJim like 660 or around there DangardAce 550, DangardAce I think. AFC DaveS The High Sierra FST? How common is that format? Can we use CDs for IBMs and stuff like that to gran k00l images? DangardAce Put the fonts on in Shrinkit format, make retrieval even slower AFL Marty They'd all fit ... and with room for Art Guild stuff too. AFC DYAJim High Sierra is really funky AFC DYAJim An Apple II Art CD-ROM would kill AFL Marty Fonts and clip art on CD ROM would make lots of sense if only the drives weren't so expensive. AFC DaveS What are the employment opportunities like in the Apple II market these days? AFC Ted slim & none AFL Scott I think booting the system from a CD-ROM makes sense. Hell, it's uncorruptable, but Apple will have to change their thinking. AFC DYAJim TOO SLOW! CD-ROM booting is icky And you can't customize your boot AFL Scott You should be able to fit the whole thing on one track, though, Jim. AFL Marty You can't corrupt your boot either. AFL Marty Dave.. did you say you were going to be at the Boston thing? AFC DaveS I'm gonna try to make it. DWS Steve If you are in Boston, Stop by and visit us! AFL Marty Excellent! AFL Marty I expect to be there also. AFC DaveS I had such a good time hanging out with Ted and Tosh that I just have to go back. AFL Marty If things work out as I hope, yes! AFC DaveS LOL :) AFC DaveS I wonder if we can set up a few GSs somewhere and draw stuff with the newest stuff! DangardAce Kwantum should have a booth. DangardAce You can bet your booty Apple won't be bringing any GS's. DWS Steve DreamWorld will have a booth... AFC Ted Pete, if you want AOL to have a booth, start working on Tim DWS Steve I believe Apple's booth will be like last times... a local dealer will do it. So there won't be any gs's or System Software 6.0, or the new HyperCard, etc. This expo is going to have Mac stuff as well... otherwise Apple won't be there. But it is in a good location... better than New Jersey or Kansas.. :) AFC Tosh Apple Expo....The Few, The Proud the Elite of the Apple II world. AFC DaveS It would be cool if we could get some artists and musicians to hang around a booth somewhere. AFC Tosh I think the Mac volume will be low though. DWS Steve I hope so... AFC DaveS We'll turn our volume UP :) AFC Tosh DreamWorld booth should be a cool place, :) DWS Steve :) DWS Steve we'll have something new to show... AFL Marty You know, even if there's no new stuff to show I bet there'd be lots of.. AFL Marty interest in seeing new ways to use what's already available. DangardAce Don't despair, we could have the DSP card demoing at the show.. not AFC DaveS That crashed, Pete? AFL Marty I want to see you guys draw with DP AFC Tosh Super Drive Card? AFC DaveS DP kicks. AFC Tosh Twilight II? AFC Ted Don't look at me, Marty... I shocked Dave when I said I don't even have it DangardAce DP is cool, but Flatulence Paint is semi-cooler, just a bit AFL Marty You'll get your chance to prove it, Dave :) AFC Tosh New Icon Editors? AFC DYAJim Twilight II! AFC DYAJim What about it? AFC DaveS I was gonna show Ted. Instead I get the tour of PP. AFL Marty Does that come with it's own gas mask, Pete? AFC Tosh April? If 6.0 is out? AFC DYAJim April/May, I'd hope :) AFC DYAJim "2nd qtr 1992" :) AFC Tosh SoundSmith 1.0? AFC DYAJim So that gives me slack until June :) AFC Ted Geeze. I thought it was coming out this month sometime AFC DaveS BTW, is McKinsey's Animatar format anywhere online? DWS Steve McKinsey has a new format for animatar, I believe he told me... AFC DaveS Ok. AFC DYAJim Yeah, he revised the format lately. AFC DYAJim It's completely proprietary still I believe. DWS Steve You should check out Mckinsey's HD... he has some of the coolest stuff! AFC DaveS Is he gonna be at the Fest? AFC DYAJim like what Steve? :) DWS Steve He has old Rastan source... with the debug stuff in it.. and a lot of other cool things... like Shawn Quick's QASM, the assembler... etc... AFC DYAJim oh yeah he was telling me about that several months ago :) AFC DYAJim He was saying how brooks codes worse than parik :) (in terms of readibility) AFC DYAJim Yeah, he was telling me about qAsm too.. sounds cool.. he was certainly hooked on it.. :) I haven't seen either though in person yet DWS Steve Yeah, because brooks doesn't need any comments... he just knows it all... AFC DaveS I keep running up against some kind of mental wall whenever I try to use Orca/M. Wah. DWS Steve he loves Heinemen's code though.... DangardAce Brooks is doing a SNES title, he's still with Novalogic.. DangardAce He's supposed to be doing some super 3-D thing.. AFC DYAJim yeah.. brooks.. no comments, no labels, no nuttin' :) DWS Steve QAsm sounds cool... it is a merlin syntax assembler, that generates orca omf files... and it's supposed to be faster than merlin... it measures assembly times in tenths of a second... :) AFC DYAJim Orca/M is cool :) DangardAce BTW, there'll be a new GS game from Big Red in 2 months.. a direct by-product of Bill Heinemans next SNES cart.. AFC DYAJim what happened to BT3 GS? is it out? AFL Marty When's McKinsey's game supposed to be out? DWS Steve isn't big red going to do BTII? AFL Marty What is it? TimeLord? DWS Steve btIII that is? DangardAce It's called Out Of This World and has incredibly fast 3-D polygon animations.. DWS Steve TimeLord is under development... :) AFC DYAJim yeah btIII DangardAce like what would happen if Fantavision allowed 4,096 points per shape. AFC DYAJim I meant :) AFC DaveS Whoaness. AFC Tosh Only the Shadow knows. :) AFC DaveS :) DWS Steve oh yeah... Pete.. send that info! AFC DYAJim btiii