AppleLink APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG December 27, 1988 10:00 pm Eastern Topic: Apple II Operating Systems Forum Leader: James Luther (AFL Jim) AFL Jim Welcome to the Apple II Development Forum. I hope you're have a AFL Jim season! Tonight, the beginning topic of discussion is Apple II Operating System AFL Jim s AFL Jim ^ a hanging s AFA Gary J :) Uhura Lonely little s ScottG25 I got a turbo mouse, a desk, and a radio controlled car.. AFL Jim ANyone have any questions to start the discussion off? Uhura B-P Uhura How do you write an FST (in 25 words or less) B-) THE GIBBER You don't ;) Dave Lyons You don't--and if you do, it takes more than 25 words AFL Jim Ask Apple politely, Uhura THE GIBBER Just a few more....David.... Dave Lyons I can to it in 6 words: "Apple, PLEASE write a _____ FST." ScottG25 LOL!! SteveDodd Yes, like AppleWorks GS or DIcED if you click on a file it auto load the prog + THE GIBBER LOL.... How bout this one...... When is the volume 2 of the GSOS reference AFL Jim What FST (File System Translators) for GS/OS is everyone waiting for? THE GIBBER going to be avaliable????? SteveDodd plus the file. Does the OS support this ? if so how ? Uhura DOS 3.2 :) THE GIBBER HFS AFA Gary J Right, Uhura... :) DennisDoms MS-DOS Dave Lyons Santa, I want FSTs for HFS, MFS, DOS 3.3, Pascal. AFL Jim OK, Steve first... Dave Lyons Steve D, the MessageCenter is the mechanism that supports passing the pathnames ScottG25 HFS... Hmmm. I almost said MFS... only I didn't...never mind...:) AFA Gary J Q = Steve Dave Lyons of programs to Open and Print; message type #1 is defined & used by the Finder AFA Gary J Q = Steve (Dave) Dave Lyons and by any applications that choose to support it, including AWGS, DIcEd, and Dave Lyons probably lots of others. (DIcEd won't actually print, but it'll tell you that Dave Lyons it can't. Printing is done by selecting icons in the Finder and choosing Dave Lyons Print from the File menu.) Dave Lyons (ga!) Dave Lyons [Oh--I believe MessageCenter -is- described in the final Addison/Wesley tbox Dave Lyons ref, vol II, under the tool locator chapter.] AFL Jim John, you're question is next. Volume II of the GS/OS manual is still being AFL Jim revised to get it to APDA beta level. ScottG25 ? AFL Jim We should see it sometime very soon. AFA Gary J Q = Scott AFL Jim Scott, a question (GA) ScottG25 I was just going to ask if anyone has seen the manual, but realized that if you ScottG25 have you couldn't say anything about it... sorry. :( AFL Jim It looks much like Volume 1 on the outside ;) DwightW1 ? ScottG25 Paper, eh? AFA Gary J Q = Dwight AFL Jim GA Dwight THE GIBBER ? AFA Gary J Q = Dwight, GIBBER DwightW1 my question is very basic...... DwightW1 how do you get gs/os up and operating from a hard disk drive? Dave Lyons Use the Installer! Dave Lyons (It's on the 2nd disk you get.) The trick is that if you have a SCSI drive, Dave Lyons first you need to boot up a copy of GS/OS that has the right driver installed, Dave Lyons which means you need to use the Installer to install that driver on a 3.5" Dave Lyons copy of the system disk, reboot with that, and then use the Installer again, Dave Lyons now that the system sees your hard drive. Dave Lyons (did that help?) AFA Gary J Q = Dwight (Dave), GIBBER AFL Jim Dave, that's only needed if you're going to use Apple's SCSI card. GS/OS builds HdRockCafe (evening) AFL Jim a generic driver that should work with most other hard drives. DwightW1 ....plenty....i must hav missed this in the instructions AFL Jim (like the Chinook I'm using). Dave Lyons Right--I should have said "Apple SCSI card" above, not SCSI drive. You'll need Dave Lyons the above trickiness only in cases where you need a special driver to get AFL Jim Dwight, check out the paperback manual, "Apple IIGS System Tools" that comes Dave Lyons GS/OS to recognize your drive. HdRockCafe ? AFA Gary J Q = Dwight, GIBBER, HdRockCafe AFL Jim with GS/OS from your dealer. It has step-by-step instructions for Installer. HdRockCafe Ok DwightW1 will do...thanks! AFL Jim John, you have the next question. GA THE GIBBER How bout updates to the toolbox manuals for GSOS... And A GSOS specific APW? THE GIBBER any Ideas? AFL Jim ! AFA Gary J Q = GIBBER (Jim), HdRockCafe AFL Jim There is an update to the toolbox manuals available from APDA. SteveDodd ? AFL Jim I'm sure Mike Westerfield is working on a GS/OS update to ORCA (same as APW). DwightW1 ...except that it is not available... AFA Gary J Q = GIBBER (Jim), HdRockCafe, Steve THE GIBBER I must have overlooked that one in my Apdalog ;) THE GIBBER thanks ga AFL Jim It was when I ordered it, Dwight. AFL Jim HdRockCafe, you have the next question. HdRockCafe I am very frustrated, I have been trying to use the Apple operating system disk ScottG25 Funny, I got mine from them! DwightW1 i want it also, talked with apda.. AFA Gary J Q = HdRock, Steve DwightW1 said it is in print Coach101 ? AFA Gary J Q = HdRock, Steve, Coach HdRockCafe and I need some help, can anyone suggest where I can get some tutors? HdRockCafe or a good beginners book Dave Lyons ! HdRockCafe ga AFL Jim Which operating system ProDOS or GS/OS? HdRockCafe Well any of them, I just don't know how the operate AFA Gary J Q = HdRock (Jim, Dave), Steve, Coach HdRockCafe I would like to beable to do some simple tasks using the operating systems Dave Lyons Do you have the "Apple IIgs system disk users guide" or whatever? Scapino Can you be more.....specific? AFA Gary J From a programmers standpoint, or just with existing applications? HdRockCafe Yes, I am the IIGS system disk guide, I would like to work with existing HdRockCafe applications HdRockCafe opps I have Dave Lyons :) AFL Jim Do you want to program with the operating system or just use the Finder? AFA Gary J Q = HdRock, Steve, Coach HdRockCafe Jim, I don't even know this Difference :) HdRockCafe Don't LAUGH HdRockCafe :) AFL Jim Well... the manuals that come with the system are the only thing I've see that AFL Jim tell you how to use the applications supplied by Apple (the Finder, Installer, AFL Jim etc). If you want to start programming with Apple's operating systems, there AFL Jim are several good books published by both Apple (through Addison-Wesley) and by AFL Jim others. For using the operating system from BASIC, you might want to get AFL Jim "ProDOS Inside and Out" byt Dennis Doms and Tom Wieshaar. It explains the AFL Jim commands and gives lots of programming examples. AFL Jim Gary Little should have a new book out sometime in the next couple of months on AFA Gary J Q = HdRock, Steve, Coach AFL Jim programming with ProDOS and GS/OS. It is a total rewrite of his older book, AFL Jim "Apple ProDOS: Advanced Features for Programmers" HdRockCafe Thanks for the informations, next time I will try to be more specific w/?. :) AFL Jim Dave, do you have anything to add? Dave Lyons Nope, you dun good :) AFL Jim OK, Steve. GA with your question. SteveDodd I have the toolbox vol ii open, could you give me a brief:) view of how to pass AFA Gary J Q = Steve, Coach AFA Parik ? SteveDodd parameters with the "MessageCenter" ie action,type,messageHandle? AFA Gary J Q = Steve, Coach, Parik AFL Jim GA Dave, you've worked with this more than I have. SteveDodd and what are the different ranges for these types! :) SteveDodd I have orca/pascal Dave Lyons Ok, just a sec here.... Dave Lyons There are 3 things you can do: post a message, get a message, and delete a AFL Jim chapter 24, Dave AFL Jim :) SteveDodd page 24-14 Dave Lyons message. The first parameter is 1, 2, or 3 to specify add, get, delete, Dave Lyons respectively. Dave Lyons For all of these things, you need a message id number from 1 to $ffff, and the Dave Lyons only currently-defined type is 1, which is used for passing a list of pathnames Dave Lyons to applications from Finder-like things. (Types 2 and 3 are also used by the Dave Lyons Finder, but they are not documented & are subject to change.) Now, to post a Dave Lyons message you need to have your data in a memory block that has been allocated Dave Lyons thru the memory manager, so you have a handle to it. You pass the handle as Dave Lyons the 3rd parameter to MessageCenter (the msg id was the second parameter). The Dave Lyons memory block with your message starts with 4 reserved bytes (room for 1 pointer Dave Lyons ) and a 2-byte copy of the message ID (an "integer" in a high-level language); AFA Gary J Q = Steve, Coach, Parik Dave Lyons then you can have as many bytes of actual data as you want (well, up to 64K, Dave Lyons I think). In Pascal, you would declare something like TYPE MessageRec = RECORD Dave Lyons Next: longint; MessType: integer; MessData: [whatever] END; TYPE MessagePtr = Dave Lyons ^MessageRec. For getting a message, you just need a handle to any memory Dave Lyons block, possibly even a zero-byte-long memory block, and the MessageCenter AFA Gary J Q = Steve (Dave), Coach, Parik Dave Lyons resizes your handle's block to whatever size is needed & copies the message Dave Lyons into it. Questions? AFL Jim ! AFA Gary J GA Jim AFL Jim So, an application should make a call to MessageCenter with a getmessage call SteveDodd Thanks! great, next how easy is it to write GS/OS installer scripts ? AFA Parik ! AFL Jim before doing anything else to see if it should load or print a file. Right, AFL Jim Dave? Dave Lyons Right--you mean like asking the user what file to open? Yes, it should check Dave Lyons the MessageCenter first. AFA Gary J Q = Steve (Dave, Jim, Parik), Coach, Parik AFL Jim Sounds easy. Dave Lyons Steve, installer scrips should be pretty easy to write--there is a document Dave Lyons someplace describing the format; I don't know if it was just sent to Dave Lyons certified developers or what. Anybody remember? AFA Parik Yup AFA Parik the APDA version should have it also ScottG25 It's in the release notes, no? AFL Jim It comes with the "Apple IIGS System Disk 4.0" from APDA. AFA Parik not the boxed edition Scott. ScottG25 Ok, thanks! SteveDodd Thanks, it's great to get such a good answer, If anyone wants to buy TML pascal SteveDodd let me know after forum Ive got orca, ga AFL Jim OK, Coach. Your turn to ask a question. GA AFA Gary J Q = Coach, Parik THE GIBBER ? Coach101 I may have missed it in the previous conversation, but... AFA Gary J Q = Coach, Parik, John Coach101 How the heck do you train finder to know what application Coach101 to invoke for a given document? ga Dave Lyons ! (!!!!!) AFL Jim GA Dave Dave Lyons Well, the _manual_ says the Finder will figure it out by itself if you double- Dave Lyons click on a document of a certain type, get the complaint that it doesn't know Dave Lyons what to run for that kind of document, and then launch the right applicatin Dave Lyons yourself next; but I believe this has not been implemented. (Yell if you know AFA Gary J Q = Coach (Dave), Parik, John AFA Parik ! Dave Lyons differently!) SO--what you do is use an ICON EDITOR like my DIcEd (Desktop Dave Lyons Icon Editor, avail in AUT libraries, Shareware for $15), or Paul Elseth's Dave Lyons IconEd, also Shareware for $15 and available in the same place. You create THE GIBBER (blatent plug) Dave Lyons an icon matching a particular filetype and/or auxiliary type and/or filename AFL Jim (hehehe) AFA Gary J hehe SteveDodd ! Dave Lyons pattern, and you fill in "application pathname" = the name of the progam Dave Lyons the Finder should run when you Open or Print that kind of document. ga AFA Gary J Q = Coach (Dave, Parik, Steve), Parik, John AFL Jim Parik, a comment? GA THE GIBBER ! AFA Parik Is that what the AppleWorks GS 2nd installer does? Coach101 Thanks.... It does not appear to be implemented in the Coach101 "for sale" GsOs. Thanks for the info..... AFA Gary J Q = Coach (Parik, Steve, John), Parik, John Dave Lyons Parik, dunno but can check. Just installed AWGS today, and I did it myself Dave Lyons before I realized they provided installer scripts! :) ScottG25 ! AFA Parik :-) dave AFA Parik (Real programmers don't use scripts? :) AFL Jim Steve, do you have a comment? AFA Gary J Q = Coach (Steve, John, Scott), Parik, John Coach101 Scripts are for "slotless" computers! SteveDodd yes, scripts are very powerful !! the are used by many programmers! AFL Jim OK John, GA with your comment. THE GIBBER If you fill out the application launch the application will launch; however THE GIBBER correct me if I am wrong... It will run the application, but won't open the Dave Lyons (Real Programmers would rather know exactly what files have been copied where, Dave Lyons so they do it from their favorite command shell....) THE GIBBER file. You have the application running but the file isn't loaded.... at least THE GIBBER that is what has happened when I have tried that route ga :) AFL Jim John, that is correct unless the application supports the MessageCenter calls AFL Jim we were discussing earlier. AFL Jim Scott, your comment... GA SteveDodd They can be used for debugging purposes, and burning in systems I know Apollo SteveDodd Computer uses them! ScottG25 Geez you guys are good, you both got my comment in two swoops!!:) GA AFA Gary J Q = Coach, Parik, John Dave Lyons ! AFL Jim Dave, GA SteveDodd I agree the scripts should let you know what is being copied ! if not I think SteveDodd that they are poorly written!!! Dave Lyons BTW, BASIC.LAUNCHER is another application that recognizes the MessageCenter; Dave Lyons it passes the first pathname along to BASIC.SYSTEM's startup buffer (the old Coach101 Let me know what was copied and deleted in a file or Dave Lyons convention for ProDOS 8 SYS files). I think it does this even if you choose Coach101 hardcopy. I sure like to know who changed waht! Dave Lyons Print after selecting a BASIC program, actually :) It still just runs it. ga AFA Gary J Q = Coach, Parik, John AFL Jim Parik, your turn to question. GA AFA Parik Can anyone tell me how to turn off the cursor in the Orca & APW shells? I AFA Parik wrote a utility for Orca that uses the GS/OS disk access calls, and when its AFA Parik the users turn to change the filetype, you use the arrow keys to change it. AFA Parik Well, the cursor gets in the way and it looks sort of ugly, I moved the cursor AFL Jim ! AFA Parik out a little but its still blemished. :) AFA Gary J Q = Parik (Jim), John AFA Parik (I've tried $E0C000, _Readchar, and $E0C00F) AFL Jim Print a ASCII $05, Parik. AFA Parik Aha. Thanks! AFL Jim (or $85) AFL Jim $06 or $86 is cursor on. Dave Lyons BTW, at leat one manual has the $05 and $06 (ctrl-e and ctrl-f) BACKWARDS, so AFL Jim $05 or $85 is cursor off. Dave Lyons try it the other way if it doesn't work. The Firmware manual, I think. AFL Jim I always find it fastest in Gary Little's "Exploring..." book. AFA Parik Ok, will do. Thanks AFA Gary J Q = John AFL Jim John, you have the last official question. GA THE GIBBER This is totally off track..... I haven't published anything I have programmed AFL Jim (what track? :) AFA Gary J :) THE GIBBER now that I am getting serious about it I am in the process of becoming THE GIBBER Certified with Apple.... However I am running into problems ......Like the THE GIBBER business plan....What do they want on that.... I am getting conflicting THE GIBBER opinoins on that subject....some say to make it a formal document and others THE GIBBER say to make it very informal..... Can someone give a poor programmer some THE GIBBER advise on this matter? THE GIBBER ga AFL Jim Hmmm... that's a good question that I'm not sure what to tell you on. I know AFA Gary J Q = John AFL Jim people that are certified on shareware and that doens't take very much of a AFL Jim formal business plan. I think the general idea is to prove to Apple that you're AFL Jim serious about marketing a product for Apple computers. Once you've done that, AFL Jim they'll be ready to help. THE GIBBER It is just that I am getting conflicting statements on that part.... I Dave Lyons ! AFL Jim ga Dave Dave Lyons Yes, if you're _already_ distributing a product, you _don't_ need a business DwightW1 IN talking about certification...i've been told apple is only.... Dave Lyons plan. You might want to describe your product as "private direct-mail sales Dave Lyons from home" or something rather than "Shareware" (but who knows, maybe that's Dave Lyons Nth-hand info, where N is too large.... :) THE GIBBER Have a 50 hour week and I use most of the rest of the time on the computer so AFA Parik Try putting your goals, expenditures, and any profits you hope to have. They AFA Parik will return the form if you do not have enough information, and ask you to send AFA Parik it back. THE GIBBER not much time left for other stuff DwightW1 interested in Mac programmers,....is this true? AFL Jim Not true Dwight. DwightW1 ...thank the lord! THE GIBBER The last time I was on the phone with developer services (to get the AFA Gary J Q = John THE GIBBER application) They asked me what the main thrust of the development was and I THE GIBBER said Apple //gs and they really pleased.....They said that they were looking THE GIBBER for more //gs development. THE GIBBER ga AFL Jim Apple has been advertising for both Apple II and Mac Engineers lately and I AFL Jim know several Apple II programmers that have been hired there recently. AFL Jim They are interested both inside and outside the company. AFA Parik (I hear whole staffs of online employees have been employed :-) AFL Jim for something called AppleLink I think, Parik. THE GIBBER LOL Coach101 ? AFL Jim GA Caoch AFL Jim Coach (oops) AFA Parik I thought it was McDonalds...:) ScottG25 LOL, Parik!! THE GIBBER I am in a den of Certified Developers ahhhhhghhghghgh!!!!!!!! ;) Coach101 Dumb one again.... AUT libraries? Translation please DwightW1 ...at least it sounds good for the //gs programmer AFA Gary J That's MAC Donalds, Parik AFA Parik hehe AFL Jim AppleLink Apple II Utilities Forum Libraries. AFL Jim = AUT SteveDodd ? Coach101 Thanks.... Dave Lyons Coach, that means you can hit Apple-K, AUT, return, and then choose Software Dave Lyons Libraries to get there. AFL Jim Use the keyword AUT to get there fast. AFL Jim GA Steve SteveDodd Do you know if apple is working on improving APW C? AFL Jim No word, Steve. THE GIBBER I had a friend that was programming a "Database, Learning, and Telecom" program THE GIBBER He was going to call it "Mac DLT" ;) AFA Parik haha AFL Jim I'd like to thank you all for coming to this conference tonight. Stick around AFL Jim and chat as long as you want. Coach101 re: APW C: They still have not found that sysCall != SysCall AFA Gary J He'd probably have trademark problems with that one, John! :) DwightW1 dave, jim i want to thank you for the info received..really appreciate it SteveDodd ditto THE GIBBER NO..............;) AFL Jim Coach, C is case sensitive. Dave Lyons Dwight, you're welcome. AFL Jim Dwight, anytime! AFA Parik Thanks for the cursor info. :) THE GIBBER Dave.....The info you gave was as good as goal..... A regular fountian of info SteveDodd I just find that APW C is just to slow ! Dave Lyons (You too, Steve, if that ditto was referring to Dwight's thanx.) Coach101 I know that.... Look at CINCLUDES/GSOS.H in the latest APDA Coach101 release. It does not know it! AFL Jim Anyone want the address for Developer Services (to ask about certification AFL Jim info)? DwightW1 well...good night....will tell you how i come out with gs/os on my hard drive Dave Lyons Yes, Jim, and the GSOS.H does have the problem Coach is talking about! AFA Parik Night Dwight! THE GIBBER <--------Waiting on Transwarp GS before tackling C compiling :) Coach101 Why not ScottG25 Gibber... Good reason!!:) AFA Gary J Goodnight, Dwight SteveDodd I am spoiled, I program on a sequent computer at school the C implementation is SteveDodd much better! DwightW1 oh...decided to stick around for that address THE GIBBER Should be out in January...... if those guys at AE didn't give my dealership AFL Jim Developer Programs, Apple Computer, Inc. 20525 Mariani, MS-51W, Cupertino, CA AFL Jim 95014 THE GIBBER the wrong information DwightW1 telephone #? AFA Parik I can imagine it now, The Transwarp GS and the new set of technotes on my AFA Parik door in January at the same time...:-) THE GIBBER Goodnight.....folks.... I have to get off the net now..... :Parik AFA Parik Night Jon! AFL Jim Phone number is... (408) 974-4897