AFC Jeff   : Welcome to the Friday Night HyperCard Chat!
BillG35    : Good night! Only a few of us: is there a main topic 
             for tonight? 
AFC Jeff   : It looks like we'll be chatting without a topic 
             tonite...
BillG35    : Answer rec'd
AFC Jeff   : so if you have anything on your mind... just raise 
             your hand and be recognized.
DDRUCKER   : Well, I have a suggestion.
AFC Jeff   : Shoot Dave!
BillG35    : OK, I still wanna rag on why HC 2.1 typed so slowly 
             on my ...
BillG35    : Mac plus.  I mean really slowly.  I could type over 
             myself and have it ...
DDRUCKER   : I'm curious if folks think that HyperCard will become 
             a popular app again, or will it stay
BillG35    : actually skip and resort characters.  No keydown or 
             such found. 
DDRUCKER   : somewhat of a cult (present company excluded of 
             course).
DDRUCKER   : That is, after the next version. (done)
AFC FrankV : !
AFC Jeff   : Let's see, HyperCult... or speed on MacPlus... 
AFC FrankV : Only one chance for HyperCard to be mainstream...
AFC Jeff   : go Frank!
AFC FrankV : Marketing, Marketing, Marketing. <done>
AFC Jeff   : Well, I think people need affordable utilities to 
             extend HyperCard that are available in the main
DDRUCKER   : Can Marketing create a need?
DDRUCKER   : Whoops, scuse me.
AFC Jeff   : stream... not just online, after all we're kind of a 
             minority among computer users...
BradleyB13 : !
AFC Jeff   : a lot of aspiring HyperCard users get upset over the 
             lack of support tools because they aren't
AFC Jeff   : readily available. But the cost of getting into the 
             mainstream is too high for most of us, and the 
AFC Jeff   : return is rather small.
AFC Jeff   : Comment Bradley? 
BradleyB13 : I think that the original intent of HC (not being 
             perceived) as a programming application
Nine2Five  : !
BradleyB13 : was a good one, so it would not scare people away
BillG35    : !
BradleyB13 : what we need are goos stack shipped with the product 
BradleyB13 : (again) to get people excited (done)
AFC Jeff   : Carlos, go ahead.
BradleyB13 : er...good stacks
Nine2Five  : I think HC's success depends on the direction taken 
             by Claris...
Nine2Five  : Since there are so many different applications for 
             HC, it appears "vague" to ...
Nine2Five  : so many people.  It's hard to focus into one 
             direction, but maybe..
Nine2Five  : that's what needs to happen here. <done>
AFC Jeff   : BillG, go ahead.
BillG35    : Sorry to be a downer but I think you must start at 
             the bottom: HC is *great* as 1) a common front end,
BillG35    : 2) entertainment 3) an intro to programming. 
             Concentrate on these (if the chips are 
BillG35    : down and let the rest come. It's got enough native 
             flexibility to work over time. done
AFC FrankV : !
AFC Jeff   : Frank, go ahead.
AFC FrankV : I think that HyperCard real original purpose should 
             not be overlooked either...
AFC FrankV : The original goal was to create a simple flat-file 
             database and things got out of hand...
BillG35    : !
AFC FrankV : There is still a great deal that HyperCard has to 
             offer in that regard. <done>
AFC Jeff   : Go ahead, BillG.
BillG35    : I was just wondering at HC's complexity (after you 
             get out of brosing) but I just realized
BillG35    : that HC compares favorably w/ other now mainline 
             apps: 
BillG35    : have you seen Excel 4--talk about complex. And Word 4 
             as well. HC used to
BillG35    : be really complex but the rest of the Mac world (real 
             progs) are catching up. 
BillG35    : done
DDRUCKER   : ?
AFC Jeff   : Go ahead, Dave.
DDRUCKER   : What do you mean by complex, Bill? Excel strikes me 
             as _very_ easy - which is why
BillG35    : !
DDRUCKER   : it is such a winner in the interface race for 
             spreadsheets. Maybe if HyperCard were to follow
DDRUCKER   : Excel's lead, a lot more of it would be push-button 
             stuff - like the link-to button was, but a real
DDRUCKER   : solution, not a lame one (like link-to). (done)
AFC Jeff   : Go ahead, Bill.
BillG35    : I teach real users--people who need to get stuff 
             done, not comuter explorers. 
BillG35    : Just throw a few tool boxes up there and you can make 
             it "look" like a different prog--
BillG35    : like a customized HC stack. (a redundancy I know.) 
             done
DDRUCKER   : So complex = clutter?
AFC Jeff   : Would you say externals that are widely known in the 
             online world would do well in the market?
DDRUCKER   : !
AFC Jeff   : Go ahead Dave
BillG35    : From the view point of a real user, yes complex = 
             clutter. 
DDRUCKER   : I'd say only some do - for instance, 
             WindowScript.Because people have a hard time
DDRUCKER   : coming to grips with a tool that they have to type 
             something to use (ie, a script)
DDRUCKER   : People like draw and do. Not type and orchestrate. Am 
             I on target here?
AFC Jeff   : I guess, more like the Serius programming model...
AFC Jeff   : Is that what you mean Dave?
DDRUCKER   : Possibly, but I was thinking more of automated watch 
             me scripts with an interface drawing package.
AFC FrankV : !
DDRUCKER   : For instance, I want to make a script that finds a 
             term and builds a list. I do an example, and then
AFC Jeff   : Ok, what do you think of the addition of scripting to 
             other areas, like PageMaker, or Frontier?
DDRUCKER   : make a button that the app has learned from me.
AFC Jeff   : This seems to point to an acceptance of scripting.
DDRUCKER   : (I guess, there isn't any app that does what I mean 
             yet).
DDRUCKER   : Except maybe Microphone.
AFC Jeff   : Well, QuicKeys does a nice job of watching and 
             repeating.
DDRUCKER   : True.
AFL HypCrd : And so will AppleScript :)
DDRUCKER   : Yeah - but not interface. Maybe that will be 
             HyperCard's next job. To be an interface for trig-
DDRUCKER   : gering AppleScript scripts.
AFL HypCrd : David...did you see any of the AppleScript demos at 
             MacWorld?
DDRUCKER   : Yup - nice editors that bolded all the reserved 
             words.
Nine2Five  : !
DDRUCKER   : Still looked very bare and forbidding tho. Maybe what 
             I'm after is something as warm and fuzzy as
AFL HypCrd : But the Watch me capability is really neat.
DDRUCKER   : Excel buttons but not as cluttered. (agree there)
DDRUCKER   : Nine2Five?
Nine2Five  : So are we saying that we want HyperCard to be a more 
             structured entity with...
Nine2Five  : 20 types of buttons that do certain things, or do we 
             want it to be a more powerful...
Nine2Five  : "thing" that let's us (the developers) define the 20 
             (0r 50) types of buttons, and ...
Nine2Five  : what each of them do?  
Nine2Five  : done
AFC Jeff   : Actually, it needs to be everything from extremely 
             easy to extremely maleable...
AFC Jeff   : But right now it's in a middle place that's difficult 
             to approach.
DDRUCKER   : WHich gets back to the suggestion that we once again 
             need awesome examples.
DDRUCKER   : It's a pity that HyperCard doesn't really have a 
             raison d'etre.
AFC Jeff   : Agreed... but they need to be somewhere besides 
             online!
BillG35    : bye--got a class tomorrow. 
DDRUCKER   : - No reason to learn it.
AFC Jeff   : Bye Bill!
DDRUCKER   : Well, I did include a disk with a book, and get calls 
             from folks without modems. But that can only
DDRUCKER   : go so far.
AFC Jeff   : It comes back to the question, "What is HyperCard?"
AFC FrankV : ...or what can it be!
WildCard1  : can one capture the msgs in thesatcher.. that might 
             also do what david wants
AFC Jeff   : Right, and I think the PowerTools stack is a nice 
             example of what it can do, but it's impersonal.
CWSoldier  : Protocal?? 
Nine2Five  : See, that's the thing... It can be anything you want 
             it to be!!!
AFC Jeff   : On the other hand, if Claris loads up real high 
             quality examples in the bundled version...
BradleyB13 : !
AFC Jeff   : then developers will cry foul, because they feel 
             they're getting kept out of the market.
AFC Jeff   : Go ahead Bradley.
BradleyB13 : I think Claris _should_ load it up, with great 
             examples
BradleyB13 : there are not very many places (other than on-line) 
             that people
BradleyB13 : can find stacks of interest (or variety)
BradleyB13 : that will "hook" people on the be-all that HC really 
             is. <done>
DDRUCKER   : Has anyone ever seen a product with really good 
             examples?
DDRUCKER   : They seem really hard to do.
Nine2Five  : !
AFC Jeff   : It seems the best examples are commercial products... 
             that the companies aren't willing to 
AFC Jeff   : give away.
AFC Jeff   : Go ahead Carlos.
Nine2Five  : That's because it's hard to come up with an example 
             that will appeal to a lot of people...
CWSoldier  : !
Nine2Five  : With Reports, we ship an invoice stack that is very 
             rudimentary...
Nine2Five  : But I actually have a customer that's using it as the 
             starting point for his own...
Nine2Five  : invoicing system.  What we need to do is give people 
             a place to start at...
Shrink2Fit : !
Nine2Five  : and then give them the tools to jump off! :)
AFC Jeff   : Go ahead CWSoldier.
Nine2Five  : Done
BradleyB13 : bunji-hypercard
CWSoldier  : I can't seem to follow tonights theme...but I have to 
             questions/requests...
CWSoldier  : 1) Does some one know of or will someone develop 
             (please, please :) ) a MOD playing HC stack &...
DDRUCKER   : CW - I just asked if people thought HyperCard would 
             reenter the mainstream. Then we went off.
DDRUCKER   : MOD as in SoundTreker?
CWSoldier  : 2) When are we going to get a color version of 
             HyperCard from Claris?  GA
AFL HypCrd : MOD?
BradleyB13 : gotta run...trouble with a 9 yr old
CWSoldier  : Yes, DDRucker.  It would require a MOD playing XCMD I 
             know, but I don't have that expertise.
AFC Jeff   : I believe those are MIDI files.
AFL HypCrd : A 9 year old...that would be a Mac 128k?
DDRUCKER   : Not quite, I think. They are an Amiga file format.
AFC Jeff   : 9 year old would be a LISA!
CWSoldier  : And I feal that MOD playing HC stack would open music 
             to those without access to CD-Roms and the like
DDRUCKER   : They are like MIDI, but you can't play a MIDI file 
             with SoundTreker - the app that plays them on the
DDRUCKER   : Mac. You're right CW - but a real MIDI playing stack 
             that does 4 voices is possible - without
DDRUCKER   : the use of an external device!
CWSoldier  : The MOD source code is now packaged with the 
             SoundTrecker program...but I'm know "programmer"...
AFC Jeff   : Rumor has it that HyperCard 2.5 will have color in 
             the form of an Xternal ala ColorizeHC.
CWSoldier  : just a user who want to develop good music to go with 
             HyperMedia stacks possibly.
DDRUCKER   : You can achieve close to MOD quality but you have to 
             buy some stuff.
CWSoldier  : Was that a MIDI playing HC stack???
DDRUCKER   : You need to get HyperMIDI from Nigel Redmond (a 
             shareware subset used to be up on CIS and is
CWSoldier  : Where, I've been looking for something for years it 
             seems to play MIDI files through the Mac speaker?
DDRUCKER   : probably also up here). Then, you need Apple's MIDI 
             Manager. THen you need a commercial app called
CWSoldier  : I'll shut up now and let someone else talk.  ;-)
DDRUCKER   : Sound Exciter. It does a little 4 voice synthesizer 
             using the Mac's built in sound chip that you can
DDRUCKER   : play the MIDI files using the MIDI Manager as a 
             routing mechanism.
DDRUCKER   : Does that make sense?
CWSoldier  : Just tell me where I can get it all.
AFL HypCrd : Here's what I know about HyperMIDI...
AFL HypCrd : HyperMIDI 2.0--Nigel Redmon, EarLevel Engineering,  
AFL HypCrd : 21213-B Hawthorne Blvd, Suite 5305, Torrance, CA 
             90509-2881   
CWSoldier  : Sound Exciter AND HyperMIDI right??
AFL HypCrd : AppleLink:D7045
CWSoldier  : Both will play MID files through the Mac speaker 
             correct.
AFL HypCrd : This info is about a year old.
DDRUCKER   : no -  MIDI Manager to do the final magic of getting 
             MIDI commands to Sound Exciter.
DDRUCKER   : HyperMIDI just thinks it's sending MIDI commands out 
             to your DX-7. MIDI Manager reroutes it to
CWSoldier  : MIDI Manager??? 
DDRUCKER   : Sound Exciter. Sounds like a video game (or 
             SoundTreker).
DDRUCKER   : MIDI Manager is Apple System software for routing 
             MIDI from one Mac MIDI app to another.
DDRUCKER   : It's a system extension (like QuickTime).
CWSoldier  : Two programs???
CWSoldier  : <---Boy do I feel stupid
DDRUCKER   : Don't feel stupid. This is a bit of a kludge, so it's 
             not all that simple.
CWSoldier  : MIDI Manager...available here online??? maybe
DDRUCKER   : You need three pieces. XCMD HyperMIDI. MIDI Manager. 
             SOund Exciter. MIDI Manager is available
CWSoldier  : Now Quicktime, I understand...that I've been playing 
             with.  Music, I'm ignorant.
DDRUCKER   : from APDA, I think. Anybody else get it?
DDRUCKER   : I mean, the MIDI Manager.
AFL HypCrd : (CW this is all new to me too :)
CWSoldier  : DDRUCKER, if you don't mind, later outline this for 
             me and email it to me, so others can get a word in
CWSoldier  : :)
AFL HypCrd : David...I think I see...HyperMIDI assumes there is a 
             MIDI device connected to your serial port...
AFL HypCrd : But MIDI manager intercepts the data....
AFL HypCrd : and send it to Sound Exciter, which 'plays' the 
             music?
DDRUCKER   : Bingo, Peter. As I said, it's a kludge, but it works. 
             It's written up in the Music and Sound Bible.
AFL HypCrd : (Out the Mac Speaker).
DDRUCKER   : That's available from IDB books (huge tome) by Chris 
             Yavelow. As he says, it's amazing someone
DDRUCKER   : hadn't thought of it before.
DDRUCKER   : (done)
AFC Jeff   : Well, what else?
AFC Jeff   : It seems we've dwindled down to the hard-core.
DDRUCKER   : Someone else please! :)
AFC FrankV : !
AFC Jeff   : Go ahead Frank.
AFC FrankV : One more comment on HyperCard's future...
AFC FrankV : I would think that much of HyperCards failure to date 
             has shown us that...
AFC FrankV : many people are looking for a solution to a problem 
             and will sacrifice power for ease of use/setup in
AFC FrankV : order to get it.
AFC Jeff   : One thing about HyperCard, it's real success has been 
             largely invisible...
AFC FrankV : HyperCard certainly has more "power" than many of the 
             other simple flat-file databses like FMP, but
AFC Jeff   : that's in custom development. 
AFL HypCrd : BTW - We are now, officially, off protocol!
AFC FrankV : it does not present itself in the same way. <done>
DDRUCKER   : HOw could you tell?
AFC FrankV : I agree Jeff, but to Claris the number of copies sold 
             is the bottom line.
AFC Jeff   : True, but that's why tools are so desperately needed 
             in more wide circulation.
AFC Jeff   : That way more people will see that the power of 
             HyperCard can and has been extended.
AFC Jeff   : And be more apt to plunk down $$ for an upgrade.
AFC Jeff   : And it's still being given away with every new 
             machine...
AFC Jeff   : and for the moment Apple is still moving a lot of 
             machines.
AFC FrankV : Agreed, but to really make money at it, Claris needs 
             to be one selling the extensions.
AFC Jeff   : Anyways, long live HyperCard!
AFC Jeff   : Oh, I agree, but they risk pissing developers like 
             you and me off.
AFC FrankV : Of course, but what do they care really. As long as 
             the money goes to their pocket. :)
AFC Jeff   : Well, I can't say that, after all I've licensed 
             externals to Claris.
AFC FrankV : Yes, but I know of several commercial level HyperCard 
             things that they have turned down.
AFC Jeff   : Well, it seems they don't want to sell the 
             aftermarket... I can't figure them out.
AFC FrankV : Exactly!
Nine2Five  : They can't figure themselves out!
AFL HypCrd : Actually...it's pretty simple to figure...
AFL HypCrd : Claris, as a business, is set up to deal high volume 
             software...
AFL HypCrd : they aren't set up to do low-volume...the 
             distributors won't carry the stuff...
AFC FrankV : (or that the idea at least :)
AFL HypCrd : And the HC aftermarket is low volume....
AFC FrankV : Yes, but many of things could be integrated directly 
             into the main product.
AFL HypCrd : So they aren't interested....however...that may 
             change to weren't :)
AFL HypCrd : However, adding all the bells and whistles to HC 
             makes it big and slow...
AFC Jeff   : Yeah, a modular approach works best for them...
AFC FrankV : I guess you have not seen MacDraw Pro! Claris cares 
             little about whether something is big and slow!
AFL HypCrd : and one of the 'foundations' for HC was that it would 
             only build in what 90% of the people used.
AFC Jeff   : that way they can deliver a product that can run on a 
             MacPlus...
AFC Jeff   : but can be extended to take advantage of all the 
             power of a Q950...
DDRUCKER   : Note that Reports by 9-5  doesn't seem to Mac HC 
             bigger and slower, but AddMotion does.
AFC Jeff   : Claris, at the moment, doesn't want to sell the 
             extensions, they've left that to others...
DDRUCKER   : WIndowScript is also a little pokey
AFC Jeff   : BungDabba gave away a major extension.
AFC FrankV : That is a good point Jeff, I really can not figure 
             out where they think this product sits.
AFL HypCrd : However...the folks that made those decisions (the 
             high volume marketing and product development)....
AFL HypCrd : are no longer at Claris....
AFC Jeff   : One can only hope that the developers working on HC 
             care about it, and know it's roots.
DDRUCKER   : They don't think it sits anywhere. They don't even 
             know what it is. I'm still hoping it goes back to
AFL HypCrd : And as we have seen, while Extensions to HC aren't 
             necessary high volume...
DDRUCKER   : Apple. 
AFL HypCrd : the extensions are essential to making HC a high 
             volume product because...
AFL HypCrd : the usage of HC is so fragmented....everybody uses it 
             for something different...
Nine2Five  : Bingo!
AFL HypCrd : So, I believe that we will start to see some 
             extension products from Claris...
AFL HypCrd : Just speculating....
AFL HypCrd : but instead of low priced XCMDs....
DDRUCKER   : Interesting idea - make money not from the razor, but 
             from the blades.
AFL HypCrd : we may see some slightly higher priced 'licensable' 
             extensions...
AFC Jeff   : Gee King Gillette had an idea like that...
AFL HypCrd : For example, a few members of the HC team have 
             pointed out that one of the biggest uses of HC...
AFL HypCrd : is as a communication front end....there are at least 
             10 tool kits sold...
AFL HypCrd : Mainframe, serial, Mitemview, etc....
AFL HypCrd : So I think we may see some sort of communications 
             XCMD package sold as a seperate product.
AFL HypCrd : And that also, possibly, fits with Jeff's earlier 
             comment about Color being an XCMD.
Simcog     : ?
AFC Jeff   : Well gang, I'm nodding off... I'll see ya next week!
AFL HypCrd : Simcog <ga>
DDRUCKER   : Color as an XCMD in 2.5? I can't believe that they'd 
             do that. Too many tech support calls.
AFL HypCrd : Jeff, thanks for hosting tonite!!!
Simcog     : Everytime I try to open the audio pallete, I get a 
             message that I don't have enough memory.
Simcog     : I'm on a MAC IIsi with 5 megs ram and about 15 megs 
             on my hard drive.
AFL HypCrd : David, I agree, I don't think they will do that :)
AFC FrankV : Using System 7?
MMecklem   : I get "HyperCard has unexpectedly quit"
Simcog     : Yes
AFL HypCrd : What size partition do you have set for HC?
DDRUCKER   : Simcog -- do you know how much memory is allocated to 
             HyperCard?
DDRUCKER   : (what he said)
Simcog     : No....I haven't checked.
AFL HypCrd : (just in different words :)
DDRUCKER   : We do that alot.
DDRUCKER   : Well, I'm outa here. Good chat, even if impromptu.
AFL HypCrd : Actually in the Finder they call it Suggest Memory 
             Size...but that doesn't seem very descriptive.
AFL HypCrd : Next week...Nine to Five Software!!!
Simcog     : What do I need to set it at?
DDRUCKER   : See you next week - leaving for Toronto after that.
AFL HypCrd : Simcog...try something bigger :)
Simcog     : OK....thanks.
AFL HypCrd : Try 3 meg. and see if it works....
AFL HypCrd : then you can reduce it until it works.